Who is Jesus? Is he God?

by BelieverInJesus 396 Replies latest watchtower bible

LittleToe

Inquisitor:
I apologise if I've offended you. That wasn't my intent. The emoticon () was intended to give away that I'm not offended, nor am I attempting to demean your intellect. The whole point of my post was to point out that the conclusion that you have come to is not "inevitable".
On this board there are those who are Modalist, Polytheist, and Binitarian. These are three alternatives to the Trinitarian view, while yet accepting the divinity of Christ.
My relationship with Christ began while I was still a JW, albeit it began immediately after I came to an intuitive understanding that "Christ was more than I had been taught by the WTS". At that point I couldn't describe it any better, because my understanding was limited to those doctrines that I had been raised with from birth. I'm not precious about the doctrine, for the simple reason that I don't believe that the Trinity doctrine is a salvation issue, but IMHO a good understanding of it certainly answers many of the conundrums that scripture presents. It was a position I arrived at through bible-reading alone, prior to involvement with any church or Christian group.
Pax,
Ross.
ellderwho

Bible does not provide a specific definition,
Your entire argument rests on this very assumption. Re: Christ glory. Whats puzzling is your ability to carry on as if you have an argument that defends your assumptions.
Do you have a point anymore?
I clearly asked where did this glory Christ has come from. You've done nothing but dance around the issue and bring other points in that cloud the issue.
Deputy Dog

LT
I don't believe that the Trinity doctrine is a salvation issue,
Is the Deity of Christ? Can someone deny the Deity of Christ and still be saved? If so how?
D Dog
Hellrider

Inquisitor:
To insist that Christ is God, does that not mean you believe that the Son and the Father are co-equal? How then is the concept of Christ's divinity independent of Trinitarian leanings? I would genuinely like to hear how you make that distinction. I am not trying to taunt.
I have made it clear why people who do not agree with the Trinity just cannot accept that Christ is divine. I personally feel it is a contradiction. We cannot simply call Christ God and yet disagree with the Trinity. If you think that is possible, please tell me why and how.
Have you tried to look at the relationship between God (the Father) and "God the Son" in other ways than just the kind of family-relationship that we know of, here on earth? Have you tried to think of it in other ways? How do we know that the family-relationship is the same in heaven as it is here? Two people cant be the same person here on earth, but how do we know that this is not the case in Heaven? There are other ways to look at it, you know. What about you, as a person, and your mind/thoughts? Are these "two" distinct? Where does the person end, and where does the thought/mind begin? Are they not two of the same? What if God the Father is the person, and Jesus Christ is the thought/mind, or perhaps....word?! If God is the sun, and Jesus is the rays, isn`t the rays also "the sun"? This mystery, this philosophical way of looking at it was part of the early church from the very beginning - but the mystery, the philosophy was lost after a few centuries, as the christian faith became dogmatic, first in the catholic church, and this tradition of a christianity without mystery or philosophy continued on into protestantism, and eventually, the strain of christianity you yourself is part of. The tradition you are in (born into?) had long since lost touch with the mystery and the philosophy. Go back to the beginning, see what the early church fathers in the first couple of centuries AD wrote about Jesus Christ, his status, and his relationship with the Father-God:
Ignatius of Antioch: "...God Himself appearing in the form of a man, for the renewal of eternal life."( Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians 4:13)
Justin Martyr ( 140 A.D.) "the word of wisdom, who is himself God begotten of the Father of all things, and word, and wisdom, and power, and the glory of the begetter, will bear evidence to me".(Dialogue with Tropho Ch.61)
"...He preexisted as the Son of theCreator of things, being God, and that He was born a man by the Virgin." (Dialogue With Trypho, 48 )
IranaeusIranaeus (120-202) "In order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King..."(Irenaeus Against Heresies, 1.10.1)
180 A.D. "But he Jesus is himself in his own right, beyond all men who ever lived, God, Lord, and king eternal, and the incarnate word, proclaimed by all the prophets, the apostles …The Scriptures would not have borne witness to these things concerning Him, if, like everyone else, He were mere man."(Against Heresies 3:19.1-2)
Athenagoras (160 AD.) Speaks of "one God, the uncreated, eternal, invisible, impassible, incomprehensible, uncontainable, comprehended only by mindand reason, clothed in light and beauty and spirit and powerindescribable, by whom the totality has come to be."(suppl. 10.1)
…"the Son being in the Father and the Father in the Son, in oneness and power of Spirit, the understanding, and reason of the Father is the Son of God." (Ante Nicene Fathers vol.2 p.133 a plea for Christians)
"For Christ is the God over all".(Refutation of All Heresies 10.34)
"God the Word came down from heaven...He came forth into the world and...showed Himself to be God".( Against the Heresy of a Certain Noetus, 17)
Tertullian (converted around 193 AD)(215 AD) "The origins of both his substances display him as man and as God: from the one, born, and from the other, not born" (The Flesh of Christ 5:6-7).
"God alone is without sin. The only man without sin is Christ; for Christ is also God."(The Soul 41.3)
And check out this early almost full formulation and definition of the Trinity-doctrine:
Dionysius (262 AD )"Neither, then, may we divide into three godheads the wonderful and divine unity . . . Rather, we must believe in God, the Father almighty; and in Christ Jesus, his Son; and in the Holy Spirit; and that the Word is united to the God of the Universe. `For,' he says, 'The Father and I are one,' and `I am in the Father, and the Father in me'" (Letter to Dionysius of Alexandria, 3)
...in 262 AD, more than 60 years before the "great heresy" (according the the Jehovahs Witlesses) of the church meeting in Nicea.
The antitrinitarianism of the jws and other cults of our day, is just a natural development in the course of a christianity that became dogmatic and stagnant. But if you go back to the beginning of christianity, you will see that it was something completely different than what the jws claim it was. To sum it up: The early christians were not Jehovahs Witnesses...
Fisherman

THe OT is very clear that The Almighty has no equal. The shema dclares the oneness of God and it was unthinkable for ancient Jews to equate the true God with any other living entity. The concept of the Messiah was also known by the ancient Jews. The Messiah was to be someone annointed by God and subordianate to God but not God himself.
If God was to tell people today outright that He is not Jesus, the trinitarians would try to teach God a thing or two.
God cannot be killed. Jesus was killed. God does not learn Jesus learned. God does not worship. Jesus worshiped. God cannot be tempted. Jesus was tempted. God cannot be xalted to a higher position. Jesus was exalted to a higher position. God is not a priest. Jesus was is a priest. God is not annointed. Jesus is God's annointed. God does not pray. Jesus prayed. God killed Jesus as a sacrifice. God does not commit suicide. God cannot be bruised. Jesus was bruised. Jesus never claimed to be God almighty(killing Jesus proved that he was not almighty). Jesus claimed to be the Messiah. God is not the Messiah.
for what it is worth.
ellderwho

The shema dclares the oneness of God and it was unthinkable for ancient Jews to equate the true God with any other living entity. The concept of the Messiah was also known by the ancient Jews.
Joh 10:33
The Jews answered him, For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
LittleToe

DDog:
Is the Deity of Christ [a salvation issue]?
It is, but with a very important caveat. While I'm sure you would acknowledge that faith follows the thing heard, how do you deal with someone who doesn't intellectually comprehend the whole issue?
I point to my own example again. I had no comprehension of the divinity of Christ. I didn't have the intellectual fraework with which to understand the concept. Intellectually I had been indoctrinated to believe something quite contrary to the whole idea. For all that, Christ revealed himself to me as something more that that which I had been taught. I continued to deny Christ's deity, though found such denial increasingly unsettling, especailly as I began reading scripture with new-born eyes.
At this point I will add the importance of scripture, wherein there are the reflections of individuals who have connected/contacted the "Divine". After this "experience", the first time I read John 20:28 it resonated with my experience. By the time I had got to that part of the gospel my mind had been enlightened as to what it was that I had inately come to acknowledge. By this point I had a framework to express that which I intuitively knew, to whit, Christ was my Lord and my God.
It wasn't until that point, about two months after my "conversion", that I could fully and wholeheartedly acknowledge the Divinity of Christ. I was no more saved at that point. I had acquired no more faith. I continued to love Him with my whole heart, mind, strength and soul, in a way that I was totally unable to over two months previous.
Now we return to the very important point with which we started: Is the deity of Christ [a salvation issue]? (square brackets, mine). To this I candidly answer yes, and would paraphrase the comments of C.S. Lewis to elucidate. Since we (as Christians) believe that Christ is "the way, the truth, and the life", and hence the very doorway to life, this is the means by which people attain life even if they don't know it.
IMHO in this sense Christ is the very public face of God, through whom (and with whom) we enter into a relationship with Him. I offer as an example Abraham and Moses, both of whom had a relationship with God and spoke with Him. Was this the Father or the Word, with whom they spoke? Hopefully my point is made in that they spoke to the Word / Son / Christ, who they refered to as God, even though it's highly unlikely they had a fully developed theology of the nature of God.
Can someone deny the Deity of Christ and still be saved? If so how?
Yes. See above.
Fisherman:
God cannot...
Right there would be the fatal flaw in all of your arguments. If you suggest that God "cannot" then He's hardly God, is He?
Deputy Dog

LT I was just talking to EW on the phone about this, and we both agree with most of what you posted.
It wasn't until that point, about two months after my "conversion", that I could fully and wholeheartedly acknowledge the Divinity of Christ. I was no more saved at that point. I had acquired no more faith. I continued to love Him with my whole heart, mind, strength and soul, in a way that I was totally unable to over two months previous.
My "conversion" was not unlike yours. I was "saved" as a child, and didn't understand the Deity of Christ. I think many would fall into this category. As a Calvinist this is a mute point, since we are all "saved before the foundation of the world.
The problem I have is the denial issue. and someone dying in that state. Someone in this state needs to be evangelized not encouraged as a brother. Scripture would tell me that someone dying in this state, has died in their own sin.
IMHO in this sense Christ is the very public face of God, through whom (and with whom) we enter into a relationship with Him. I offer as an example Abraham and Moses, both of whom had a relationship with God and spoke with Him. Was this the Father or the Word, with whom they spoke? Hopefully my point is made in that they spoke to the Word / Son / Christ, who they refered to as God, even though it's highly unlikely they had a fully developed theology of the nature of God.
Abraham's faith was in Christ's authority, simply knowing God would provide the Lamb sometime in the future.
Isa 43:11
I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me thereis no savior.
How could the Savior be anyone other than God? How could someone deny this and say, they have faith in God and not a creature or an idle?
I think a good argument could be made for the whole nature of God being a salvation issue.

Romans 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Again for the most part, I think we agree. Some of these hairs can only be split by God Himself.

2Co 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
D Dog
ellderwho

I don't believe that the Trinity doctrine is a salvation issue, but IMHO a good understanding of it certainly answers many of the conundrums that scripture presents. It was a position I arrived at through bible-reading alone, prior to involvement with any church or Christian group.
I think Im there with you Bro-Toe. Esspecially the conumdrums part.
UnDisfellowshipped

Hello! Welcome to the board my fellow Believer-In-Jesus! May God bless you as you worship the Holy Trinity!
I will post more on this thread about this subject as soon as I have the time.
First, I wanted to make a short reply to Free2Beme's comment.
Free2Beme said:
Jesus Christ - Christian - A man born of virgin birth, half God and half human. Only God when in the realm of the Gods, but possessed god like power while on earth.
Who is Jesus? Myth, Legend, etc.
The Trinity Doctrine does not teach that Jesus was half God and half Human. It teaches that He was 100% God and 100% Human. It also teaches that Jesus was 100% God and 100% Human WHILE ON EARTH. It also teaches that now, after He has been raised up, He, being in Heaven, is still 100% God and 100% Human.
Have you truly investigated the Gospels? Have you researched the claims of Jesus and His followers? Have you investigated both sides of the argument about His Resurrection?

Who is Jesus? Is he God?

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