Who is Jesus? Is he God? (page 9)

lovelylil

Lt - thank you so much. I have come to that same conclusion. Lilly

Deputy Dog

LT

it becomes difficult to tell where God leaves off and Jesus begins.

You do mean it becomes difficult to tell where the Father leaves off and the Son begins, right? Or is this the new "compassionate Calvinist" view?

Dog

I have to wonder if you think I don't know where you're going with this. I do. The answer is the Father. The Bible is very clear about this. Now, of course you'll jump to John 2:19 and say that Jesus raised himself, but of course we must consider how this happened. We know that the Bible tells us that the Father did it, and verses such as John 17:5 show that Jesus is not the Father. So, how did this come about? What role did Jesus take that was unique from that of the Father? For example, the Bible says that God made Solomon king, that David made Solomon king and that the people made Solomon king, but they all had a unique role in this coming about. What, Scripturally, was Jesus' role?

Mondo

Mondo1

Jeff S,

What you describe does nothing more than show Jewish agency. Trinitarian desperation has brought some of them to the speculation that you mention, but it is pure speculation. Simple agency shows us what is going on. Hence, when "God" wrestled with Jacob, the Targum Pseudo-Jonathan explains it was Michael. Michael was appearing as God's agent, and so *legally* it was as though God himself wrestled Jacob, and hence the text says that. This is a known concept that can be seen in numerous passages. This is especially clear in that the law was delivered by angels (plural) according to ones within the New Testament, and because there are texts that are shown from the Old Testament to be the Father specifically, and yet we know that nobody has seen the Father. What has happened is various ones have appeared as the Father's agent.

Mondo

Mondo1

Frank,

You write:
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Your explanation, as I see it, takes away from the glory and meaningfulness of Jesus' earthly ministry. Either God spoke through his Son "in times past" or he didn't. Hebrews 1 shows there is a vast difference in the way God spoke to mankind before and after Jesus arrived.
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God spoke through various ones in times past, and I mentioned 1 Corinthians 10, which seems to point to at least one time when it was the Son. It doesn't take away from anything at all. You give no reason why it takes away from it. You only claim it. Again, what I am discussing is the *means* by which God spoke by the prophets, and the means was various agents, likely including his son.

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Perhaps you are one of Jehovah's Witnesses. Perhaps not. I don't know. They believe Jesus was the archangel Michael and God's spokeperson to mankind. But Hebrews 1:5 denies that with the question "For to which of the angels did He ever say, 'You are my son, today I have begotten you.'"? Jesus was not the archangel.
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I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses but I do not believe Jesus is Michael, but that text does nothing to deny it. That text has written with regard to the man Jesus, and it has nothing to do with how he existed prior to becoming a man.

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Additionally, what would be the point of Hebrews 2:2, 3, where we're told that the OT messages were spoken through angels and the Christian gospel was presented to us by God's Son and those who knew him personally? If God's Son spoke "in times past," why is there no mention of this? The writer asks, "For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty, how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard."
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Because when God sends forth an agent, it is counted as God himself. I strongly suggest you research and come to understand Jewish agency.

Mondo

Navigator

Little Toe

Re: The statement I quoted from Charles Fillmore about the divinity of Jesus:

I agree! It does work just as well. Were Charles Fillmore still alive, I imagine that he would also agree.

LittleToe

DDog:

I have written what I have written.

Was he called Jesus when preincarnate? Surely you're not telling me that the Son (having taken to himself a true body and reasonable soul) is identical to the Father? As he sits at the right hand of power, is there no way to distinguish them from each other?

Navigator:
Thought ya might

By_Blood_Immortal

Let us go on the assumption that everyone reading this agrees that the NWT is truth, though I know for a fact that everyone will NOT believe this. Whether you do or do not, that is the translation I am using. Go look it up in NLV or KJV or NIV whatever you want, it will be the same. The Bible goes much deeper than choice of words, even though that is a large part of it.

First, Jesus exsisted. There is documentatioin BESIDES the Bible. "The Book of Josephus" mentions Jesus in Antiquities, Book 18, chapter 3, paragraph 3

“Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.”

Second, Jesus was God's son.

John 8: 28-29- When he got to the other side, into the country of the Gad·a·renes´, there met him two demon-possessed men coming out from among the memorial tombs, unusually fierce, so that nobody had the courage to pass by on that road. And, look! they screamed, saying: “What have we to do with you, Son of God? Did you come here to torment us before the appointed time?” <Even his enemies form the heavenly realms acknowledged him as the Son of God? Did he decieve them too?

Third, Jesus was God.

John 20: 28- In answer Thomas said to him: “My Lord and my God!” <You mean he was decieved? Wasn't he one of the closest to Jesus?I'm relatively sure ALL of the disciples felt this way seeing as how Thomas was the only one that doubted, yet he ended up believing anyway.

Acts 7: 59- And they went on casting stones at Stephen as he made appeal and said: “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” <Since when have complete humans been able to recieve spirits?

If you think I'm wrong, or you decide that this is inconclusive, tell me why and/or which part.

greendawn

I haven't read the thread above but my take is that Jesus is Lord and to some extend God that is Divine but he has always been subordinate to God the father as is plainly obvious from the writings of the apostle Paul. The question is can he be some kind of god apart from the Father? The answer is that it's the Father that set him up in a divine position and gave him everything, subjecting everything to him apart from Himself of course. The Father is God in the absolute way and the son in a limited way though very far above all creation.

Mondo1

By_Blood_Immortal,

You write:
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Third, Jesus was God.John 20: 28- In answer Thomas said to him: “My Lord and my God!” <You mean he was decieved? Wasn't he one of the closest to Jesus?I'm relatively sure ALL of the disciples felt this way seeing as how Thomas was the only one that doubted, yet he ended up believing anyway.
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Does this mean that Jesus was "God" as in Jehovah? God is often used in a personal way, as a quazi proper name. Here it is not used that way, but rather it refers to a position that Jesus held over Thomas. Jesus was "god" to Thomas, but this does not make him God as in the Almighty. There is a necessary distinction that must be draw, for the word QEOS (god) carries with it different senses.

----------------------------- Acts 7: 59- And they went on casting stones at Stephen as he made appeal and said: “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” <Since when have complete humans been able to recieve spirits?
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Since Jesus was given the authority to resurrect the dead. The spirit is the life force, for force that animates the body. For Jesus to resurrect one it is necessary for him to return that life force to the person, and so Stephen trusts him with it.

Mondo

Who is Jesus? Is he God?

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