"That I may make a reply to him that is taunting me"

by under_believer 117 Replies latest jw friends

  • lowden
    lowden

    Mr E

    Welcome to the forum.

    God doesn't have to prove anything to anybody because God CANNOT LIE!!

    If God says something is true....then it's true!! No human or spirit creature can question that because 'it is written'.

    That is why the theoretical story that we are told by the WTS is hogwash.

    So millions of people have had to die because of some debate between God and Satan. There is NO debate!! God has no NEED to debate.

    "Satan?"

    "Yes Jehovah?"

    "You're wrong....get it? You know i'm telling the truth don't you...because i can't lie?"

    "Yes Jehovah"

    "So can man rule himself, independent of me and are they serving out of selfishness?"

    "No Jehovah....of course you're right"

    Thus no need for millions of deaths, of needless suffering and pain and unimaginable horror.

    This sick excuse for all the suffering thatthe WTS dishes out is disgusting filth.

    By the way i don't believe anymore, i won't putrify and fossilise my mind for one second more.

    Peace

    Lowden

  • Mr. E
    Mr. E

    Mr E

    Welcome to the forum.

    God doesn't have to prove anything to anybody because God CANNOT LIE!!

    If God says something is true....then it's true!! No human or spirit creature can question that because 'it is written'.

    That is why the theoretical story that we are told by the WTS is hogwash.

    So millions of people have had to die because of some debate between God and Satan. There is NO debate!! God has no NEED to debate.

    "Satan?"

    "Yes Jehovah?"

    "You're wrong....get it? You know i'm telling the truth don't you...because i can't lie?"

    "Yes Jehovah"

    "So can man rule himself, independent of me and are they serving out of selfishness?"

    "No Jehovah....of course you're right"

    Thus no need for millions of deaths, of needless suffering and pain and unimaginable horror.

    This sick excuse for all the suffering thatthe WTS dishes out is disgusting filth.

    By the way i don't believe anymore, i won't putrify and fossilise my mind for one second more.

    Peace

    Lowden

    What is the meaning of The I AM ? I shall prove to be The Almighty has to prove everything under the sun to humans upon the earth. Jesus Christ is the faithful and true witness to everything that has occurred upon the earth. He will make the name of The Almighty Holy or without blemish again. The spirits and also humans chose to rebel, Jah did not instruct them to do so. He showed many examples of Love and we still choose to do bad. If your father instructed you not to touch an open flame. You would not understand the meaning of being burnt until you touched it. Wickedness causes heartache but also creates spiritual strength in learning. A strong foundation for righteousnes had to be built for eternal life. This is how the kingdom of God will not be made to totter. It will reign with strong spirit and human offspring. Mr. E (thanks for the welcome)

  • under_believer
    under_believer

    Mr. E, welcome to the forum.
    Your explanation of the Society's teachings are interesting, but the thrust of this thread is the misapplication of Proverbs 27:11. Do you have any comments on that topic?

  • Mr. E
    Mr. E
    Mr. E, welcome to the forum.
    Your explanation of the Society's teachings are interesting, but the thrust of this thread is the misapplication of Proverbs 27:11. Do you have any comments on that topic?

    Thank you, This scripture can have many applications. It can apply to jobs experience also and to anyone else that chooses to not follow the path of satan. Why is there so much concern over one scripture that can have many applications? It is not an incorrect application by the WTS. Mr. E

  • BluesBrother
    BluesBrother

    Under Believer - That is brilliant ! For so long I read , and applied that scripture in the way that the WT does. Today . decades after I first read it, I see it in its context

    (Proverbs 27:9-17) 9 Oil and incense are what make the heart rejoice, also the sweetness of one?s companion due to the counsel of the soul. 10 Do not leave your own companion or the companion of your father, and do not enter the house of your own brother on the day of your disaster. Better is a neighbor that is near than a brother that is far away. 11 Be wise, my son, and make my heart rejoice, that I may make a reply to him that is taunting me. 12 The shrewd one that has seen the calamity has concealed himself; the inexperienced that have passed along have suffered the penalty. 13 Take one?s garment, in case one has gone surety for a stranger; and in the instance of a foreign woman, seize from him a pledge. 14 He that is blessing his fellowman with a loud voice early in the morning, as a malediction it will be accounted on his part. 15 A leaking roof that drives one away in the day of a steady rain and a contentious wife are comparable. 16 Anyone sheltering her has sheltered the wind, and oil is what his right hand encounters. 17 By iron, iron itself is sharpened. So one man sharpens the face of another.

    Do we apply verses 9 & 10 to Jehovah speaking in the first person ? No! .. There are no quotation marks inserted in the text so why should we view verse 11 as being different?

    Verses 12 - 15 are talking about life and its problems and the wisdom to deal with them . So why look differently at verse 11?

    What relationship does this verse have with the book of Job? Except for stating an underlining principle that applies to all fathers and sons

    That is great..

  • under_believer
    under_believer

    Whereas I laid out my reasoning on why it does not apply to the concept of Satan taunting Jehovah, you simply countered with what effectively amounts to "oh yes it does apply."
    Why do you believe that it applies? What in the context leads you to believe that it is more than just a generic proverb, that it was Solomon being inspired to write a statement directly from Jehovah to us?

  • unique1
    unique1

    Mr. E. Welcome to the forum. You still didn't answer, in either of your posts, the original question. Where is the proof that Jehovah is speaking in that text and not Soloman?

  • myelaine
    myelaine

    dear Elihu...

    there is a parallel between the garden of eden and the hedge put around Job. imo.

    it seems that no one but God and Satan are aware of any "test" if you want to use that word.

    Job has no idea why this is happening to him...

    the fact that the three "friends" continue to harp on Job about hidden unrighteousness shows them to be poor friends indeed...

    even Elihu...the self titled "smart" one(ch.33:3) doesn't get it..

    Satan is at the root of all Job's problems...if there is no hedge...

    God then speaks to Job and describes Satan and how Job's righteousness can be compared against the power of Satan...

    ch 42:3...Job finally understands what has been going on behind the scenes, and there is another unseen player...he can hardly believe that he has been so "blind" all this time..5-6..he is sorry for not realizing that His God wouldn't do such things to him...he gets his reward.

    love michelle

    p.s. The story is an answer to those that THINK they know what's going on....none of these "earthlings" had even considered Satan.....Saints with the patience of Job do tho...

  • Mr. E
    Mr. E
    Whereas I laid out my reasoning on why it does not apply to the concept of Satan taunting Jehovah, you simply countered with what effectively amounts to "oh yes it does apply."
    Why do you believe that it applies? What in the context leads you to believe that it is more than just a generic proverb, that it was Solomon being inspired to write a statement directly from Jehovah to us?

    All scripture is inspired and beneficial for teaching reproving and setting matters straight. Solomon simply wrote what he learned out of great wisdom. The fact that the W.T.S. uses the scripture in a higher teaching does not make it a false teaching. What point are you trying to prove? That their basis of teaching based around this scripture is inaccurate? The meaning applys to job, does it not? It also applys to anyone that chooses a righteous path. All scriptures are from Jehovah to us, agreed?

  • under_believer
    under_believer

    Careful, there, Mr. E. You are advocating a viewpoint that allows anyone to apply any scripture, any way they like. In reality, it's vital to consider the context of each scripture--why was it written? What does the surrounding passage say? Who was the writer, and who was his audience?

    > The meaning applys to job, does it not?

    In fact there is no evidence that the writer of Prov 27:11 had any intent to write about Job. Remember, the surrounding verses have absolutely nothing to do with this "great court case." Nothing to do with Job at all. The fact that the writer expresses a sentiment that could be seen as being similar to Jehovah's regarding the testing incident does not mean that in fact it is referring to that event. The Society read that scripture, realized it supported their belief that we must help God make a reply to Satan, and applied it that way. But that doesn't automatically mean they're correct--you don't believe they are infallible, do you?

    > All scriptures are from Jehovah to us, agreed?

    Absolutely not agreed. If that was the case, then everything in the Mosaic Law would still apply to Christians. We can't just take scriptures in isolation and read them as though they are God talking to us. In fact, the Mosaic law has been invalidated. In fact, humans are no longer under a command to "be fruitful and fill the earth and become many." In fact, Christians no longer directly receive the Holy Spirit for gifts of prophecy, tongues, and so on. Those are just some examples of where scriptures should not be read as a direct command from Jehovah to us. There are many more, including, I believe, Prov. 27:11.

    Why is this the case? Because, put in context, these various scriptures no longer apply in this modern age.

    Prov 27:11 and its context makes no mention of Job, of Jehovah, of Jesus, of Satan, of any universal court case, of any challenge to divine sovereignty. The Society is misusing it (very often) to support a doctrine which is never even mentioned anywhere in the Bible. Universal Sovereignty is a red herring. It is self-aggrandizement by the Society, making humans (and Witnesses in particular) far more important than the Bible gives them any right to feel.

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