If the UN dissolves...will the WTS recover?

by AuldSoul 36 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • OnTheWayOut
    They have recovered from far greater changes in doctrine and false prediction. A number would fall away, but another big preaching recruitment drive would bring in a whole new base of followers that wouldn't even know about the UN. A bit like 1975

    Yes. I lean toward agreement. There would be a serious number falling away, though. The King of the North and South is a bit

    complicated for the average witness to follow, as the kings have changed over the years, according to doctrine.

    But the teaching about the United Nations is pretty clear. The spin will be along the lines of "The League of Nations was eventually

    revived as the UN" but JWs being told the end is imminent won't buy it. New recruits will learn as much as post-1975 people learned

    about that fiasco.

  • Doubting Bro
    Doubting Bro

    I think they're already downplaying the UN. Over the past couple of years, I've seen WT articles refering to the scarlet colored wild beast as "militerized elements within the UN". Seeing as how just about every country in the world is a member, that's pretty generic. My reaction to that was one of disgust because I think the motivation is to cover over the UN fiasco.

    "What, we never said the UN was the wild beast". Then after a couple of years, they can rejoin as an associate NGO out in the open.

    There are a ton of JWs that have no clue what the WTS teaches regarding the scarlet colored wild beast. The brother giving the tract release part last night said that beast was the Anglo-American World Power. He's not smart enough to come up with his own take on prophesy, he just flat didn't know and took a guess. I started to correct him but decided against it.

  • fullofdoubtnow

    I tend to agree that they would find some way to spin it so that the majority of dubs would swallow the new light crap, but I think it would cost them some members. From the sound of it however, they are making plans to cope with the potential collapse of the UN already.

  • AuldSoul

    Someone recently mentioned something to the effect that the biggest advantage of the Internet is the ability to aggregate information and make it orderly for consumption. Doubting Bro, wasn't that you?

    The way I see it, every bump in the doctrinal road is felt much more strongly by the WTS because of the Internet. It is felt in the form of reduced confidence, increased wariness and watchfulness, reduced contribution, as well as reduced participation and activism. There is a critical point beyond which no organizational system can withstand those conditions.

    My father, as confident as he is in the WTS, would seriously question the organization if the UN folded. So would my mother. If you lose the pillars of the organization, if you lose the ones who know the doctrine, you have also lost the ones who are capable of teaching the doctrine, i.e. the ones capable of adding converts. That is an important loss to the organization, because without its teachers the organization cannot sustain itself.

    Doubting Bro, how many baptized JWs has the fellow who released the tract got to his credit? I am guessing zero, but will be interested to find out from you what the reality is. I am rather young (34) but have 4 to my "credit" during the 21 years I was baptized. Since leaving last year, I have awakened 8, at least, who are now no longer JWs.

    This is a valid point to consider in determining organizational impacts. The ones who don't know the doctrine aren't the ones successfully converting people to the doctrine.


  • Doubting Bro
    Doubting Bro

    Hi AuldSoul,

    I've really enjoyed reading your posts when I was lurking (and now of course)! You have a really nice way of framing arguments and I'm not suprised that you were able to make converts (both in the org and now out of the org). Some folks are naturally convincing. I'll bet that you're in a sales/marketing position.

    I don't know his entire history, but to answer your question, I'm not aware of his converting anyone. He was a regular pioneer for quite awhile. But, he's not a very good communicator and I personally think that's who gets the most converts. I know another brother (he's older now) who has probably brought in excess of 100 people in. Why? I don't think its because of his understanding of doctrine. Its because he's a great guy, easy to talk to and yes is absolutely sure he has the "truth". But, its his conviction that really makes an impact on people. Not a creepy, brainwashed type of conviction. He is very genuine and when folks are having tough times in their lives, he is easily someone you instantly trust. But, ask him to explain what the WT teaches about Rev or Daniel, he doesn't know.

    So, doctrine is important to the organization, but unquestioning loyalty is really how they hold people. To me, the folks most likely to leave are ones who really understand the doctrine. Those are the ones that say, "what just a minute" when "new light" is released. You & I are about the same age. So, the biggest change in our lifetime has been the generation change. Many in the congregation I was in at the time didn't think much about it. It bothered me for a long time.The only ones that grumbled were the ones that I considered very knowledgable about doctrinal matters. If the Society were smart, they'd make a few more changes to push out completely folks like me who are interested in understanding complex teachings and who are more aware when changes take place. They'd end up with a slightly smaller but even more easily controlled base. Although, they sure do a good job of controlling things right now.

    The only problem I see, and to your point, is that the ones that really understand and believe the doctrine are the ones who are the backbone of the congregation, surely your parents fit that category. So on the one hand, folks that know the details are more likely to get upset when something changes. But, they're the ones doing the bulk of the work. For the rest, they're happy not understanding everything but they're not willing to make too many sacrifices. Its a tightrope and eventually, they're going to fall off.

  • truthsetsonefree

    They would probably say what they did with the King of the North: We don't know who is the "image of the wild beast." We will have to wait on Jehovah!

  • kid-A

    For decades, the WTS (implicitly, if not explicity) considered the Soviet Union the "King of the North". Their convoluted prophecies suffered no backlash with the end of the cold war and collapse of the USSR. If the UN disbanded, they would just re-write their own nonsense prophecies, slap a new expiry date on the bottle, and call it "new light"....

  • proplog2

    You don't have to wait for the UN to fold. The Watchtower's UN explanation for the beast that "was, is not" is flawed.

    I would like to see the Greek experts here examine the Watchtowers translation of Rev. 17;11. They translate "out of" as "springs from". Many translations use the words "out of" or even "one of". The words "springs from the seven" is the Watchtowers key scripture to prove that the Eighth head is the UN.

    I tend to prefer "the wild beast that was but is not, it is also itself an eighth king, but is "one of" the seven.

  • fish

    Kid-A > For decades, the WTS (implicitly, if not explicity) considered the Soviet Union the "King of the North". Their convoluted prophecies suffered no backlash with the end of the cold war and collapse of the USSR. If the UN disbanded, they would just re-write their own nonsense prophecies, slap a new expiry date on the bottle, and call it "new light"....

    We STILL believe the Soviet Union was the King of the North. The identity of that King of the North has changed many times down through the ages. Who will be the KON when Jah's day arrives? We dont know....yet.

  • fish

    And a better question is: When the political powers of the world turn on and destroy all religion (except the one TRUE religion), what will the opposers then say?

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