The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness 1380 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Frank75

  To give voice to some of the arguments recently made by the Thirdwitness continuum,

  I would point out that it is based on the wrong assumption about that word “devastation” or Jerusalem's being “devastated” (which is the argued start and key of the 70 years period as it relates to JW theology on 1914) must be the same as her time of destruction (argued only by them to be 607).

  The Watchtower theology about 607 relies upon assertion that the language the Bible uses proves that Jerusalem was to become "completely devastated, without an inhabitant". This is based partly on Jer. 25:11, which reads:
  
  And all this land must become a devastated place [Hebrew lechorbah, singular, "to a devastation, to a ruin, to a desert"], an object of astonishment, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.and it is based partly on Dan. 9:2, which reads:
  
  "I myself, Daniel, discerned by the books the number of the years concerning which the word of Jehovah had occurred to Jeremiah the prophet, for fulfilling the devastations [chorbah, plural] of Jerusalem, [namely,] seventy years."
  While Jerusalem ultimately became desolate, these scriptures do not in themselves provide solid evidence that the 70 years refer specifically to total devastation for the entire 70 years. For example,

  Jer. 25:18 states that Jerusalem and the cities of Judah would become "a devastated place, an object of astonishment, something to whistle at and a malediction,
  This prophecy was uttered "in the fourth year of Jehoiakim,... that is, the first year of Nebuchadnezzar" (Jer. 25:1). The phrase "just as at this day" shows that "the devastation", [Hebrew: chorbah] to a certain degree had already begun at this time, some eighteen years prior to the actual destruction of Jerusalem.
  
  That the word chorbah does not necessarily mean a state of desolation "without an inhabitant" can be seen from other texts which use the word. For example, Ezekiel 33:24, 27 mentions "the inhabitants of these devastated places." Nehemiah wrote his book during a time when Jerusalem was inhabited, yet at Nehemiah 2:17 the city is said to be "devastated."
  
  Pride and arrogance prevent you apologists as well as your leaders from accepting the above scriptural facts which would harmonize your theology with the overwhelming evidence of archeology dealing with this Babylonian history. The problem is still the 1914 dating which they cannot let go as has been repeatedly mentioned here. This is because their whole theology and religious authority claims would fall apart if the 2520 years (which has no real backing other than twisting isolated scriptures like the book Davinci Code) took you to 1934.

  Even if they did adopt this new chronology, most if not all JW's would accept it. The very next day after it was adopted, they would all be posting here in its favor. The problem is that it would seriously call into question and require the revamping of past hierarchical claims relating to the FDS. This they would have to do to maintain control, it is just not as easy as it sounds.
  
  As a result they have without justification combined a scripture period of 70 years desolation with a prophecy related to the destruction of Jerusalem without any basis other than their own need to elevate themselves over others.
  
  
  Frank75

  Paul says:
  
  2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, 4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.
• 

  jayhawk1

  I will make a bold prediction. If the end don't come very soon there will be more and more earthquakes since 1914 joining the over 50,000 deaths club. And so the percentage of Earthquakes since 1914 killing over 50,000 will continue to rise.

  Are you saying the frequency of earthquakes will increase or are you saying the same amount of earthquakes will happen in more populated areas? Let us not forget the Earth holds about 6 times as many people today than it did in 1914. So the likelyhood of hitting the 50,000 mark certainly is a high possibility in the right location.
• 

  AnnOMaly

  Although John says in Rev "..he made us to be a kingdom..." ;, John'.s role on earth at that time was not a king priest.. That was to occur in the future.

  Fisherman - IOW, John had not yet been given the full reward. That's true. That's the same today: many have not been given their full reward, although JWs would say the kingdom has been operational since 1914. Yet John used the past tense - "has made us" - and he calls Jesus the [present, 1st century] Ruler of the kings of the earth.

  The description in Rev of the woman giving birth and satan kicked out of heaven also seems to be in the future and not in the past.

  Not necessarily. There are a few interpretations of that passage. Even the pre-1920s Bible Students had a radically different understanding to what JWs have now. But one mainstream view is that the man-child is Jesus, the woman is the Church or God's people or Israel, that he was caught away to God's throne at his resurrection/ascension, and that Satan has been persecuting Christians ever since. It's worth comparing the different viewpoints on it. Interpretation depends on whether you see Rev as a wholly futuristic book or historical or idealist and when you think it was written and for what purpose, given the context of the times.
• 

  Fisherman

  AS

  Your suggestions do not prove or support your argument or position on what the Bible says about the kingdom. All that you are saying is, "You are wrong."
• 

  Frank75

  I recommend that you write down what you believe about rulership and authority. In separate columns. Get your opinion on the understanding of those two concepts well in mind. Then read the Christian Greek Scriptures without using any Watchtower Society literature or apostate literature. Make note of every instance that discusses rulership or authority and study out what the verses have to say.

  That is what a Bible student does if they want to know about a specific subject in the Bible. You will come away with a completely different perspective than you have now. Guaranteed.

  Respectfully,
  
  AuldSoul

  This is the best way to get a clear biblical perspective I agree. I had a JW who was leaving the witnesses come to ask me some questions and naturally they do not know what to keep in their bag of beliefs and what to discard. They even still call the JW beliefs the truth until they discover one by one they are anything but.

  I recommend discarding virtually everything, even cherished beliefs until you have read the bible, at least the NT, other versions of it of course, and then systematically build your beliefs after coming up with the basics about Jesus and his teachings.

  This leaving dub wanted to understand about the paradise earth that he was sure the bible spoke about. He believed that there we will all be perfect. I asked him to look up every reference to perfection and perfect in the bible after at least reading the gospel of Matthew and John. Then research those related terms, the context and let me know what you find. He was white as a ghost when we revisted the results.

  His family has told him that I have brainwashed and mislead him although I rarely discuss or mention my personal beliefs on any given subject. However the truth is that he is washing his own brain with his own bible which is still the NWT

  AuldSoul has given some excellent advice. You have nothing to lose, but everthing to gain by following it.

  Frank75
• 

  Fisherman

  
  Ann, I have read your comments. John's reward has nothing to do with the kingdom. Fact is that John was not serving as king priest although his statement seems to indicate that he was. That is the point. WTS views are not relevant. I am only looking at the verse you quoted in support of the kingdom already being established.

  Rev 12 relating to the birth of the kingdom is realted in seeming prophetic visionary style. Things that occurred in the past need only to be explained. Rev 12 does not explain, it is a vision. What is the point of having a vision about the past?
• 

  Fisherman

  Frank and AS

  I will humbly do as you suggest.
• 

  Hellrider

  TD, I see where you got this list from. From someone trying to disprove JWs. Can these be substantiated? By the way, the writer of the essay did have to admit this:

  In view of the population increase it might seem only reasonable to expect that more people have died in earthquakes during our century than during earlier centuries.

  Oh, the old earthquake-and-disasters-argument is just sillllly. I don`t even hear young witnesses mention it that often anymore, it`s usually something the oldtimers are still talking about. The ridicolous claim that earthquakes are happening more often since 1914 than before, has no scientific basis at all (my woman is a geologist btw). There are so many reasons why the earthquakes-argument is just stupid, but here are the two most important ones:

  1) First of all, this last century we have developed very sophisticated technology, making it possible to actually know when there is an earthquake somewhere in the world (even when there are no/few casualties). This is a new development, they didn`t have this kind of technology before the 19th century. So, there is absolutely no way we can know if earthquakes are happening more often now than before 1914, but from what is known in the fields of archaeology and geology, the WTS has no case. Ask any geologist if earthquakes and volcanic eruptions are more frequent now than earlier in history, and he/she would just laugh at you.

  2) The statistics of casualties tells us nothing. Today, in 2006, there are 6.5 billion people on this planet. Of course many people are going to die, when natural disasters happen. In 1802, there was 1 billion people living on this planet. In 1420 AD, there were around 375 million. In 950 AD, there were around 250 million people on the planet. See where this is going? The more people populating the planet, the more will die when disasters happen. It has nothing to do with the intensity, the level on the Richter-scale, of the actual earthquake. There are simply more people crammed together in citys, that`s all. So, when looking at the history of earthquakes, bear this in mind. An earthquake at the intensity of an 8 on the Richter scale, hitting Tokyo (Kyoto), Japan in the year 1450, might have killed 5000 people, while an earthquake of the exact same force in 2006 in the same location, would kill a couple of hundred thousand.

  But first of all, does the passages in the Bible say anything at all about the actual death tolls (rising) when earthquakes occur? No, it doesn`t. It simply seems to say that earthquakes will be more frequent. This is in itself clear evidence that we are not in the last days. Earthquakes are no more frequent now than they were 2000 years ago.

  JWs usually have no clue about history. The worst disaster in the history of the world was not world war 1, not even world war 2, it was the black Plague. But to actually understand this, you would have to open up a history-book instead of an Awake, and JWs (well, the "hardcore"-kind, like Thirdwitness) are hesitant to do this). As for earthquakes and similar disasters, like volcanos, the eruption, explosion and destruction of Krakatao in august 1883, beats all the earthquakes in history, in actual deaths. 30 000 died in the first few days, but the global effect of this explosion, with the thousands of tons of dust and ashes thrown out into the atmosphere, resulting in a worldwide "black cloud"; causing crops to fail in the following years on several continents, may have killed many times that number. Of course, most JWs do not know this. It was never printed in Awake magasine.
• 

  jayhawk1

  explosion and destruction of Krakatao in august 1883, beats all the earthquakes in history, in actual deaths. 30 000 died in the first few days, but the global effect of this explosion, with the thousands of tons of dust and ashes thrown out into the atmosphere, resulting in a worldwide "black cloud"; causing crops to fail in the following years on several continents, may have killed many times that number.

  I wonder if Russell ever wrote about this in Zion's Watchtower. It would make a good, "Look and see here..." to prove the world was about to end in 1914. That is before they had to change 1914 to invisable presence instead of the Big A.
• 

  thirdwitness

  
  You know what I keep hearing at this site. Where is this promised presence of his. Why, all things are continuing as they were. Jesus said nothing about frequencies of earthquakes. He simply said they would be in one place after another and they are and more people are dying from them than ever before.

  If a tree falls in the woods does it make a sound? Who cares? But if it falls on somebody it becomes important. And if it falls on 1000 people it is more important. What does it matter that more people live in the woods now than there used to be. It doesn't. If more people die from earthquakes then it is more newsworthy. Per capita makes no difference. Just because the reason is because there are more people on the earth now doesn't make what Jesus said incorrect. He probably knew that there would be more people as time went on.

  And certainly if you can't see the changes made as respects war than you are as blind as a bat. The red horse rides like never before. And it all started in 1914 with the GREAT war. Up until that time wars were mostly civil wars or little skirmishes between a few countries over borders and colonies etc. Never had there been a war like the GREAT war. Did you ever think that thats why it was called the GREAT war. And then when world war II came along they had to change the name. I guess they didn't want to call them the GREAT war and the GREATER war.

  Remember Jesus said that people would still be carrying on their everyday life and he said people would be saying where is this promised presence. So the presence of Christ would not be total chaos. But it would be accompanied by the sign of Matt 24. The sign includes all the things mentioned including the preaching of the good news now being carried out by JWs.

  You people should really wake up.