The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness 1380 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • thirdwitness
    thirdwitness

    AlanF way back on page 53 reasoned: The reason for the inconsistency is as follows: The question "when will these things happen?" is common to all three passages. Mark 13:4 and Luke 21:7 then pose the question, "what will be the sign that all these things are about to happen?" Applying this understanding to Matthew 24:3 immediately allows us to rephrase the 2nd question in the NWT: "what will be the sign that your presence and the conclusion of the system of things are about to take place?" But his means that the "sign" must occur in advance of the "presence" -- and this contradicts the Watchtower Society's doctrine that this "presence" began in 1914 and that the "sign" takes place beginning in 1914 and ending at "the great tribulation", whenever that might be. But the proper understanding, that Christ's coming has nothing to do with 1914, results in complete consistency: "what will be the sign that your coming and the conclusion of the system of things are about to take place?"

    Naturally, I don't expect that thirdwitless will even understand the above points, much less attempt to debunk them.

    Well here is the debunking.

    You have once again misread and misapplied scriptures. (What a shock.)

    A reading of the sentences before both Luke 21:7 and Mark 13:4 will show this beyond a doubt.

    Luke 21: 6 he (Jesus) said: “As for these things that YOU are beholding, the days will come in which not a stone upon a stone will be left here and not be thrown down.” 7 Then they questioned him, saying: “Teacher, when will these things actually be, and what will be the sign when these things are destined to occur?”

    Mark 13: 2 However, Jesus said to him: “Do you behold these great buildings? By no means will a stone be left here upon a stone and not be thrown down.” 3 And as he was sitting on the Mount of Olives with the temple in view, Peter and James and John and Andrew began to ask him privately: 4 “Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign when all these things are destined to come to a conclusion?”

    First take note of the subject that the disciples were questioning him about: the temple being destroyed. Now the question becomes obvious in both accounts. what will be the sign when these things are destined to occur? or what will be the sign when all these things are destined to come to a conclusion? What things? The things to do with the destruction of the holy place. That is the questions posed in both Luke 21:7 and Mark 13:4. Jesus took that opportunity to tell them about what things would happen during the conclusion of the Jewish system of things before the literal temple was destroyed as well as what things would happen during the parousia of Christ, the conclusion of the final system of things, up to the Great Tribulation and Armageddon.

    So when AlanF reasoned: Applying this understanding to Matthew 24:3 immediately allows us to rephrase the 2nd question in the NWT: "what will be the sign that your presence and the conclusion of the system of things are about to take place?" But this means that the "sign" must occur in advance of the "presence"

    He is wrong.

    Rephrasing, or in other words, twisting Matthew 24 to suit your purpose is a misapplication of the questions and is not needed because Matthew 24 is not the exact same question that is recorded in Luke or Mark. Putting the accounts together then we see that the disciples ask several questions: Tell us, when will these things actually be, and what will be the sign when the temple's destruction is to occur, what will be the sign of your parousia, and what will be the sign of the conclusion of the system of things?

    The events foretold that make up the sign was given to show his disciples when Christ's presence had arrived, when the conclusion of the system would take place, when the holy place was about to be destroyed (both literally and symbolically), and yes when Christ's coming at Armageddon was near.

    Once again AlanF tries to make something so simple so complicated.

  • Hellrider
    Hellrider

    Thirdwitness:

    About your Earthquake-myth, such as this:

    AlanF, I have used your figures on earthquakes and the highest ones at that for ;before 1914. ; I have even doubled your figures on wars ;before 1914 Here is the result.

    Earthquake deaths:pre1914--3400 per year.

    post1914--17,000 per year.

    ...I started another thread, in which this myth is debunked. In my last post on the thread are the top 28 known, most deadly earthquakes in history. Your old jw-earthquake-myth is taken care of in this thread, and I`m posting a link here, in case you missed it:

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/119493/1.ashx

  • thirdwitness
    thirdwitness

    Another misapplication of scripture.

    AlanF said: First, let's look at the full text of Luke 17:20-35:

    Luke 17:20-24: 20 "But on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God was coming, he answered them and said: "The kingdom of God is not coming with striking observableness, 21 neither will people be saying, ‘See here!’ or, ‘There!’ For, look! the kingdom of God is in your midst." 22 Then he said to the disciples: "Days will come when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of man but you will not see it. 23 And people will say to you, ‘See there!’ or, ‘See here!’ Do not go out or chase after them. 24 For even as the lightning, by its flashing, shines from one part under heaven to another part under heaven, so the Son of man will be."

    So at first, everything having to do with the kingdom of God would be unnoticed by everyone -- even by the disciples -- but when the Son of man finally came, it would be as noticeable as lightning which strikes without warning and can be visible in the entire sky. This theme of the coming of the Son of man being without warning and coming in the midst of unknowing people is then emphasized:

    You are only partly right. You are right that the kingdom of God would largely go unnoticed and this of course supports the beliefs of JWs. But Jesus is also telling his disciples that he would not return visibly in his kingdom. Jesus proves that when he says: The kingdom of God is not coming with striking observableness,. So when people say 'See here or There' do not believe them for Jesus is not returning visibly for people to literally see. That is why Jesus then said the kingdom of God is in your midst. He as the ruler of the kingdom was now there visibly in their midst for all to see but it would not be that way long nor would it ever be that way again.

    That is why Jesus then said: "Days will come when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of man but you will not see it. 23 And people will say to you, ‘See there!’ or, ‘See here!’ Do not go out or chase after them. After Jesus had gone to heaven the apostles would desire to see him again but they would not see him again because he was not coming back visibly to be in their midst again. The kingdom with Christ as king would not to be set up literally and visibly on the earth. So don't believe anyone who says the Christ is visibly over here somewhere.

    It would be like a flash of lightning that lighted up the sky when the Son of man really returned in his kingdom for anyone who wanted to see. That is exactly why Jesus gave the sign of his parousia, so that those with discerning powers would recognize his invisible arrival in kingdom power, not a physical arrival.

  • AlanF
    AlanF


    thirdwitness said:

    : AlanF said: How could a just God kill an entire world of people without warning them?

    : Is it that you don't believe the account of the flood or you believe that Jehovah is an unjust God?

    Both.

    First, no earthwide flood has occurred in the past 600 million years, much less the past six thousand.

    Second, a God who is as capricious as the Old Testament describes is obviously an ancient tribal myth, just as surely as are the gods of the Sumerian, Assyrians, Canaanites, Greeks, Romans, Norse and everyone else. A god who would kill everyone on the planet without warning, along with all animal life, can at best be described as capricious, and at worst as a monster.

    So how about that 130-fold increase in gross sexual immorality among JWs, thirdwitness? Doesn't it remind you of Sodom and Gomorrah?

    AlanF

  • thirdwitness
    thirdwitness

    AlanF just said: Is it that you don't believe the account of the flood or you believe that Jehovah is an unjust God?

    Both.

    First, no earthwide flood has occurred in the past 600 million years, much less the past six thousand.

    Second, a God who is as capricious as the Old Testament describes is obviously an ancient tribal myth, just as surely as are the gods of the Sumerian, Assyrians, Canaanites, Greeks, Romans, Norse and everyone else. A god who would kill everyone on the planet without warning, along with all animal life, can at best be described as capricious, and at worst as a monster.

    Now, how many want this guy trying to teach you what the Bible says? Please raise your hand. I don't even know why AlanF even bothers trying to explain or argue what the Bible says at all. He don't even believe what he's saying anyway. And it is obvious from his last few inaccurate posts where he misapplies and misreads scriptures that he really does not know at all what the Bible teaches about Christ's parousia.

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    This is adding to my post # 4731 on page 58.

    thirdwitness wrote:

    : Yes, alanf would do well to ignore my post # 353. Since it pointed out how ridiculous he was.

    Thirdwitness' gross hypocrisy in this shown by his post # 341 on page 53:

    : And of course because I do not quote every word AlanF has said and go thru sentence by sentence and answer him phrase by phrase he claims, "You did not answer me. You cannot refute what I say."

    : When something is said of substance and relevance I will be happy to refute it, just as has been done over and over again.

    So when thirdwitness goes through my posts and fails to deal with 95% of the material, and dismisses it out of hand with at best a skim reading, that's perfectly fine. It's just not something "of substance and relevance", so he can dismiss it.

    Yet when I feign to do the same with just one of his posts -- after dealing line by line with most of his previous posts -- he hypocritically claims that my doing that shows that I'm ridiculous because I'm ignoring his nonsense.

    Can anyone fail to realize how hypocritical this is? Coming from someone who routinely ignores more than half the posts coming his way, ignores 95% of the material in the posts he does respond to, and ignores all posts proving that certain JW beliefs are wrong or hypocritical?

    I was fairly sure that my posting this would get thirdwitness to make his astonishingly hypocritical statement, and he fell right into my trap.

    So how about that 130-fold increase in gross sexual immorality among JWs, thirdwitness? Doesn't it remind you of Sodom and Gomorrah?

    AlanF

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul

    Not realizing that thirdwitness considered this a closed debate between himself and AlanF, I foolishly have asked thirdwitness many questions he has refused to answer. I think he believes responding to the question IS an answer, even if the response does not address the question.

    AuldSoul

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    In his post # 342 on page 54 thirdwitness said:

    : AlanF said: I should note that much of the above statistical information on war, famine and pestilence is taken from Carl Jonsson's book The Sign of the Last Days: When?

    : I notice that he quotes a lot from Carl Jonnson and his book. Who is this god Carl Jonnson that I should recognize his voice?

    Who is this god that calls itself The Governing Body that anyone should recognize its voice?

    : If you are allowed to quote Carl Jonnson as if he only speaks truth,

    No one on this board thinks that. As usual you build a straw man.

    Everyone is free to read or not read Jonsson's writings. Everyone who reads them is free to look up his references, examine his arguments and agree or disagree as they please -- without consequences either way. When I refer to his writings, I'm giving credit where credit is due.

    : Can I likewise quote the WT as support for what I say and everyone accept it?

    You can quote WT bullpucky as you please, and people on this board are free to agree or disagree as they please, of course with the caveat that to express an intelligent opinion they must actually examine the material and the sparse source references given.

    However, JWs are NOT free to do this. They are required, on pain of disfellowshipping, to view all Watchtower writings as equal to the Bible.

    I will also note that you often plagiarize Watchtower writings as if they were your own. When I reference anyone else's writings, I give credit where credit is due.

    So how about that 130-fold increase in gross sexual immorality among JWs, thirdwitness? Doesn't it remind you of Sodom and Gomorrah?

    AlanF

  • Kenneson
    Kenneson

    Jesus arrived in heaven at his ascension and has been invisible to human eyes since. Why did he need to arrive invisibly again in 1914 since he was already there invisibly before?

    P.S. Is Armageddon going to be an invisible war fought by an invisible Jesus?

  • OUTLAW
    OUTLAW

    Ahhhhh Good,3rd Troll has his tard back.He`s been Re-tarded..LOL!!..So 3rd Troll,If there was a flood,where did all the water go?..It certainly isn`t in the clouds..If all the moisture came down from the atmosphere it would be 2 inch`s deep worldwide..It`s certainly not down here,or the whole planet would still be flooded..So where is all the water?..Did God flush the toilet?..LOL!!...OUTLAW

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