by thirdwitness 1380 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Frank has posted scriptures proving that Christ sat down at the right hand of God upon his ascension to heaven after his resurrection.
Very good. Now when were his enemies placed as a stool for his feet?
And Did Jesus receive 'all authority' as recorded in Matt 28:18 before his ascension to heaven while still on earth or after his ascension to heaven?
Fisherman
I know you didn't ask me, but...
When Jesus said that all authority.... what did he mean? Did he mean at that very moment, did he mean after his resurrection, did he mean in the future? I don't know. I know what the wts teaches.
If the devil is the ruler of the world, then does Jesus have all authority. (?)
Death still rules, how does Jesus have all authority? For 2 thousand years after Jesus' death people still ruling.
Excellant questions!
He was given all authority technicaly at that time, but was, and still is, not authorized by God to use it fully. After Christ "arrives" at Armageddon is when He will fully exersize His authority ( funny thing, what I just stated used to be WT doctrine ...its not from me ).
Seems as if these entities are exercising their power derived from their authority.
Yes, absolutely!
thirdwitness,
I asked you where Jesus would be seated after he received authority. I was going to wait to answer you until after you answered my questions, but I will do it your way.
Sitting at the right hand of an authority figure symbolizes subjection but in a favored position. It also symbolizes a position of secondary authority. I am sure you are aware of this.
Paul plainly states in 1 Corinthians that the Father will never be subjected to the authority of Jesus, therefore Jesus will always have a favored position of secondary authority. He will always be seated (from whatever point he first sits) at the figurative right hand of the Father.
The psalmist placed the seating on the right hand of the LORD as having preceded his writing. Receiving all authority will not change his favored positioning, it will only change the degree of authority granted to that position. In other words, Jesus won't move to another seat after receiving authority. Thus, my question to you that you did not answer (because you cannot and remain in WTS dogma). However, some things changed when that authority is received.
Jesus received his authority at some point between having met Mary Magdelene by the tomb and stating to the disciples that he had received all authority in heaven and on earth. After that point, he was glorified in authority but was again at the Father's right hand (which is clearly figurative, anyway). He had been granted authority equal to the Father's authority, he was a coregent with his father.
Your assumption is that the ascension witnessed by upwards of 500 is the only possible ascension that occurred. On what do you base this assumption?
His enemies were placed as a stool for his feet when he gained the authority. Prior to having authority equal to the Father, the earth was not a stool for his feet. After gaining that authority the earth was his footstool, too.
That doesn't mean he sat somewhere else. Ephesians specifies that the authority was granted, and that "[The Father] also subjected all things under his feet." This, despite the specification that he was seated at the right hand of God in the same context. If all things are subjected under his feet, where are his enemies? Unless you consider his enemies to be something other than part of "all things" they must also be under his feet, right?
See, thirdwitness, you are mixing JW interpretation in with analysis of Scriptures as though the light they have put for darkness is equivalent to Scripture. But your use of proof texts will not work with those who grasp the timing of the events described.
When Jesus saw Mary Magdelene he had not yet ascended. He said so. He had yet to receive all authority. Just before his public ascension, he said he had been given all authority. It must have occurred some time between his comment to Mary Magdelene, and his comment to his disciples recorded at Matthew 28:18. Unless he lied. Did he lie, thirdwitness?
AuldSoul
Flash: He was given all authority technicaly at that time, but was, and still is, not authorized by God to use it fully.
Where is the Scriptural basis for this? God has the authority to undo everything he has done. Is he proved unauthorized to do so just because he hasn't yet done so?
It is an oxymoron to state that Jesus has all authority but is not authorized to use it. That is a contradiction in terms, Flash. It falsifies itself. It is old JW doctrine. It is not Biblical.
Respectfully,
AuldSoul
For Fisherman and Flash:
I have the ability and power to run traffic lights, helter-skelter. Do I have the authority to do so?
I have the ability to build a hydrogen bomb. Do I have the authority to do so?
I have the ability and power to attack another sovereign nation and forcibly convert its form of government to one of my choosing. Do I have the authority to do so?
According to the Bible, Jesus has been ruling in the midst of his enemies ever since he received his authority. They have been a stool for his feet the entire time. Satan has no authority at all, and no capability beyond what he is allowed to have. Death is the absence of life, it is not a person and has never had authority.
Respectfully,
AuldSoul
Ok, I will help you out.
When did Jesus receive 'all authority' as recorded in Matt 28:18?
If you say while on earth then the question is how then did he receive kingship and power in Daniel 7:13,14 after going to heaven and coming before Jehovah?
If you say while on earth then How did he go secure kingly power in heaven according to Luke 19 when he already had 'all authority before going to heaven?
If you answer after he went to heaven then how is it that Jesus said he had 'all authority' while still on earth? Your whole argument that 'all authority means all authority' has just gone up in smoke. You cannot use that argument to disprove JWs because obviously Jesus did not receive his kingship until after going to heaven. Therefore, the question is when did he receive kingship of God's Messianic Kingdom? Was it in 33CE immediately after going to heaven or was it 1914.
When did God make his enemies a stool for his feet? Was it when he sat down at the right hand of God in 33CE after going to heaven?
Paul gives the answer: Heb 10:12 But this [man] offered one sacrifice for sins perpetually and sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from then on awaiting until his enemies should be placed as a stool for his feet.
Now, opposers of JWs, you have a problem. Hebrews was written in 61CE almost 30 years after Jesus went to heaven. Jesus sat down at the right hand of God after going to heaven in 33CE but he still had to wait until his enemies should be placed as a stool for his feet. When did that happen? It was after 61CE for sure for Paul said he was still waiting.
Here is another problem you have. Revelation was written in 96CE. Some, like Auldsoul, say a little before that. But at any rate it was written long after Jesus went to heaven in 33CE. Revelation was given to John "to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place." So it was about future events that would take place long after 33CE.
Now go to Revelation 11:15-17:
15 And the seventh angel blew his trumpet. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying: “The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.”
16 And the twenty-four elders who were seated before God upon their thrones fell upon their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying: “We thank you, Jehovah God, the Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and begun ruling as king.
Huh oh. Another big problem for opposers of JWs. How can this be? How is it that Jehovah begans ruling as king sometime after 33CE, even sometime after 61CE, even sometime after 96CE? What about that argument that Jehovah has always been king and could never begin to rule as king at some later point in time? What about that argument that Jesus was given 'all authority' therefore he could not have begun to rule at a later date after 33CE? Poof! It just went up in smoke.
The fact is that all of Revelation takes place in the Lord's day for John said, " 10 By inspiration I came to be in the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a strong voice like that of a trumpet, 11 saying: “What you see write..."
So now it becomes fact that Jehovah began to rule thru Christ as His King in the Lord's day sometime after his going to heaven in 33CE. The question then becomes when is the Lord's day? And this question the Bible answers in Matthew 24 when Jesus answered, "What will be the sign of your parousia and the conclusion of the system of things?" Additionally the tree dream pinpoints the time when Jehovah would once again began ruling as King as respects his sovereignty towards the earth. All evidence points to 1914.
Auldsoul,
According to the Bible, Jesus has been ruling in the midst of his enemies ever since he received his authority. They have been a stool for his feet the entire time. Satan has no authority at all, and no capability beyond what he is allowed to have. Death is the absence of life, it is not a person and has never had authority.
Amen!
"He is at God’s right hand, for he went his way to heaven; and angels and authorities and powers were made subject to him." (1 Peter 3:22)
Who are the "authorities and powers" that were made accountable to him as his subjects? The answer is given in Colossians 2:14, 15: "He has taken it out of the way by nailing it to the torture stake. Stripping the governments and the authorities bare, he exhibited them in open public as conquered, leading them in a triumphal procession by means of it."
Christ sat at the right hand of God upon his ascension into heaven. Sitting implies he is at rest and has ceased from all further troubles and sufferings from his enemies. He has advanced to the highest possible personal dignity and sovereign power under God. Angels, authorities and powers have all been made subject to Jesus Christ. He has "all power in heaven and on earth" to give commands and to pronounce a final sentence. When he returns, his enemies will discover to their everlasting sorrow and shame that all through their lives they were living under his watchful eye and were being judged by him.
Frank
thirdwitness: Jesus sat down at the right hand of God after going to heaven in 33CE.
Are you assuming that Jesus literally and physically sat by his Father in heaven and twiddled his thumbs until he was given authority? Paul didn't say he was still waiting, he said that had been awaiting until...
Your argument is false on its face. And Paul's other writings (such as Ephesians, 1 Corinthians, and Philippians) plainly demonstrate that he did not agree with the interpretation you are sticking into Hebrews.
Again, are you insinuating that Jesus lied when he said, "All authority has been given me in heaven and on earth?" ALL of your other arguments revolve around exercising of authority in certain ways, but NONE of them require that the authority was not given until the exercising of said authority occurred.
If you say while on earth then the question is how then did he receive kingship and power in Daniel 7:13,14 after going to heaven and coming before Jehovah?
If you say while on earth then How did he go secure kingly power in heaven according to Luke 19 when he already had 'all authority before going to heaven?
If you say while in heaven after his resurrection and his encounter with Mary Magdelene and prior to his public ascension into heaven, you have explained both Daniel 7:13, 14 and Luke 19.
Your turn. Keep in mind, if you assert that Jesus did not have authority at the time that he said it had already been given, you automatically make him a liar.
AuldSoul
thirdwitness: All evidence points to 1914.
Whenever you write this please understand that I automatically translate your newspeak into reality.
Allevidencepost-1930 JW reinterpretations of turn-of-the-Century events and Bible prophecy points to 1914.
There. Now that is accurately stated!
thirdwitness, is Jesus ruling as King now? If so, how do you know? What evidence do you have apart from interpretations of prophecy?
AuldSoul
Auldsoul said: Paul didn't say he was still waiting, he said that was awaiting until...
I am still waiting for a legitimate answer....no scratch that .... I am awaiting until I get a legitimate answer.
But thanks for the attempt.
