by thirdwitness 1380 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Steve: are an apostate and should be disfellowshipped. You are causing divisions among the flock. The faithfully and discreet slave have been appointed over our SPIRITUAL things as well.
Well yes, the spiritual earthly belongings of course. Not heavenly belongings.
ThirdWitness,
For the record I firmly believe the FDS has been appointed over all the master's earthly belongings. My point is that even if some believe that the FDS has only been appointed to provide the food and preach the good news and that the appointment over all the belongings happens after Armageddon this is still no reason to leave the truth or abandoned Christ's brothers.
Even if the parable you speak of were steeped with the mysterious dimensions that the WTS places on it, I think what most people on this Board actually believe, is that the Governing Body, which is in effect is the 'faithful slave', have actually proclaimed themselves as appointed by unseen forces. This is a proclamation that demands evidence, as to say the least it is rather lacking in Christian humilty for them to take this mantle upon their shoulders. Unless of course you can present factual evidence that Christ chose these ones to represent him as the only true Christians on earth? Matthew 25 paints a scenario of those who are given life, not expecting to be so blessed, whereas those who expect such blessings are dumped down the Godly rubbish shoot for ignoring the physical kindesses that set the self-righteous preachers apart from the good-hearted. Have you ever pondered those scriptures? Why are those who Christ finds acceptable to him suprised to be found in his favor? Don't the Jehovah's Witnesses preach that they are the only ones who will be judged worthy of life and that they are the only true Christians on this planet? Join some dots here for us. HS
hillary-step: Unless of course you can present factual evidence that Christ chose these ones to represent him as the only true Christians on earth?
There might be a way...
Mark 16:17-18
"Furthermore, these signs will accompany those believing: By the use of my name they will expel demons, they will speak with tongues, and with their hands they will pick up serpents, and if they drink anything deadly it will not hurt them at all. They will lay their hands upon sick persons, and these will become well."
How about it, thirdwitness. Do you have proof?
Death of the Pixies:
All" is idiomatic in Greek, it can easily easily be understood in a certain context and often has exclusions. There is no reason to think that this "all" authority must include the authority of the Davidic Kingship. One does not have to search hard to see "all" pertain to just "some" in the GNT/LXX. Dr. Strong is a putz, but here commenting on pas/panta, he makes good sense:... "the whole world has gone after him" Did all the world go after Christ? "then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan."Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in Jordan? "Ye are of God,little children", and the whole world lieth in the wicked one". Does the whole world there mean everybody? The words "world" and "all" are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is very rarely the "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts-- some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile ... "
Here Death of the Pixies makes an excellent point that will of course largely be ignored.
To add to this here are some questions to consider that shows the reasoning that "all means all" therefore Jesus could not gain any more authority or special kingship.
Where was Jesus when he made the statement in Matt 28:18 "All authority has been given..."? Heaven or Earth?
Where was Jesus when he received kingship in Daniel 7:13,14? Heaven or earth?
Where was Jesus when he cast Satan down to the earth in Rev 12 when it said 'Now has come to pass the kingdom and authority of Christ"? Heaven or Earth?
Where did Jesus go as recorded in Luke 19 to secure kingly power? Heaven or earth?
The answer to these questions are obvious. Jesus had not even been ressurected to heaven yet when he said 'All authority..." It was only After his acsension to heaven that Daniel 7, Rev 12, and Luke 19 could take place.
You have heard this argument so many times before: If Jesus became King in 1914 then why hasn't he brought an end to all governments? Why does things continue as they are?
But this argument is soundly defeated because whether you believe it was 1914 or not when Jesus received kingly power it was some time after he went to heaven. Lets say it happened on the day he went to heaven. Then why didn't he bring an end to the wickedness? Why did things continue on just as they were before? But of course all the evidence points to 1914 whether you will admit it or not.
Once again the faulty reasoning of opposers of JWs is shown.
ThirdWitness,
Here Death of the Pixies makes an excellent point that will of course largely be ignored.
Ahhh, I understand now.
So when Jesus said in Matthew 28:18, that 'all' authority had been given him in Heaven and on Earth, he meant all in the 'local' sense, sort of a local Heaven and a local earth, not biggy heaven and biggy earth? Perhaps the writers of Genesis described a local flood when they described the 'whole' earth being covered in water, it would make sense would it not?
HS
PS - Have you read W.E.Vine on the word 'all'?
Jayhawk1: Saki, you stick to your beliefs and I will stick to the facts, okay? Your beliefs will serve you well.
My belief is that you can go walk off of a cliff and I could care less...
And your right, my belief of that did serve me well.
Death to the Pixies (his post # 144) and thirdwitless (his post # 313) completely avoided dealing with the conclusive scriptures that I presented in my post # 4170 (page 39 of this thread) that prove that Jesus received all authority shortly after his resurrection. Rather, they made infantile attempts to use sophistry to get around these clear scriptural statements.
So at this point I want to see if these two JW defenders can quit being lukewarm, avoid being vomited out of Jesus' mouth, and tell us precisely, in no uncertain terms: When were the events in question in the scriptures that I quoted and commented upon fulfilled, if not very soon after Jesus' death? If not soon after Jesus' death, what scriptural proof can they provide?
Here they are:
"I say to YOU men, From henceforth YOU will see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of power and coming on the clouds of heaven." (Matthew 26:64)
"YOU persons will see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of power and coming with the clouds of heaven." (Mark 14:62)
"From now on the Son of man will be sitting at the powerful right hand of God." (Luke 22:69)
"All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth." (Matthew 28:18)
"For this very reason also God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every [other] name, so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." (Philippians 2:9-11)
Because the passage in Philippians uses language virtually identical to that in Daniel 7:13, 14 to describe Jesus' exalted and supreme position as ruler over everything, how can these JW defenders explain that the events described in Daniel were not fulfilled shortly after Jesus' resurrection? Let them explain to their readers exactly how it is that the events described in Daniel, according to their view, were fulfilled beginning in 1914 rather than shortly after Jesus' resurrection.
Since neither one of them has attempted as yet to do this, it will astound readers if either of them manages to do it now. Oh yeah, and as Hillary_Step mentioned, since they both seem to consider W. E. Vine a supreme authority on the meaning of Greek words, how do they reconcile Vine's description with their claims? And how about relating these claims to the sub-definition given in Bauer's Lexicon (3rd edition, p. 784, def. 5)?
AlanF
What did Jesus mean really? I don't know. Have to ask him to find out. When Jesus said that all authority.... what did he mean? Did he mean at that very moment, did he mean after his resurrection, did he mean in the future? I don't know. I know what the wts teaches. If the devil is the ruler of the world, then does Jesus have all authority. Death still rules, how does Jesus have all authority? For 2 thousand years after Jesus' death people still ruling. Seems as if these entities are exercising their power derived from their authority.
Here come the explanations.. from interpreters that read what other translators and interpreters wrote.
Excellent questions AlanF and you too Fishermen!!
I would very much like to read 3rdwitnesses comments on those points as they are excellent questions indeed for a JW to answer. I am afeared they may hava nun, and they will have their panties all in a bunch over those.
Tor
saki2fifty said:
: I would assume that the destructiveness of a natural disaster, namely earthquakes, is ultimately measured in casualties.
Not necessarily. This is easily illustrated. Suppose you lived in a city of 10 million people where the risk of being killed by a random gunshot was one in ten thousand per year. That means that, on average, 1,000 people a year were killed by gunshot. Now suppose you contemplated moving to a small town of 5,000 where the risk of being killed by a random gunshot was one in ten, so that on average, 500 people a year were killed by gunshot. Which one would you rather your family lived in? Which one has the greater crime?
The answer is obvious, and when you think about it sufficiently, and apply it to natural disasters of all sorts, you'll see that the only proper measure of destructiveness is per capita risk.
Think of this stuff another way. Let's suppose, for sake of argument, that the population of some country could grow at a rate of 5% per year for a hundred years in the absence of earthquakes. Suppose that this country started with a population of 1,000 people. At the end of 100 years, the country would contain 1.05^100 x 1,000 = about 131,500 people. Now let's introduce earthquake deaths and suppose that earthquakes killed people at a rate exactly proportional to the population density, say, 1% per year were killed by earthquakes. Then the rate of growth would be reduced to 5% - 1% = 4%, and at the end of 100 years the population would be 1.04^100 x 1000 = about 50,000.
The key question is: Can you identify any point within the 100 years under consideration where the number of deaths due to earthquakes exceeded some critical level? If so, then present your argument.
But I have no doubt that you cannot present such an argument, so assuming that you cannot, then answer the following: Since you cannot identify a point in the 100 year timespan where earthquakes exceeded a critical level, how can you possibly think that, in the 2,000 years since Jesus' death, you can identify a critical level above which you can confidently claim that a claimed prediction by Jesus was really fulfilled? And if you can answer that, then what is that critical level, and when was it reached in the past 2,000 years? If you can answer these questions, what objective evidence can you put forth to prove your claims?
: Regardless what the measure of a disaster is based on, whether its Per Capita or not, if it kills more people... then wouldn't it be easily classified as being more destructive/worse?
No. See above.
: On a per capita basis the facts may say otherwise. If since 1914 the percentages/per capita has remained the same, but deaths have risen considerably, then I'd say the problem has worsened.
You're wrong. See above, and answer my questions.
: However, http://earthquake.usgs.gov/learning/topics/increase_in_earthquakes.php shows that the increase of Earthquakes may not be on the rise, but may appear to be for the fact that they are now able to locate them easier.
I'm impressed! You underrate your abilities to look into things. Extremely few JWs would think to look for information about earthquakes on that website.
:: Auldsoul: He said there would be an increase in the number of earthquakes.
:: Where does it say this?
: Matthew 24: 3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?" 4 Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,[a]' and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.
: Verse 6 "You will hear..." Verse 7 "There will be famines and earthquakes in various places". So maybe it simply means that you will hear of these things more frequently.
So you can't find a scripture that states clearly that earthquakes would ever be on the increase. Why? Because this would be meaningless. Suppose that I told you that I would meet you at Alvin's Steak House in Denver when you see that the grass is green. Would that mean anything to you? Would you have gotten any information at all from me about when you should show up in Denver? Obviouly not. How about if Denver experienced several years of wet weather. Would that help you? Obviously not.
The same goes for claiming that earthquakes are some kind of sign. The website from the United States Geological Survey that you astutely posted a link to, with the article "Are Earthquakes Really on the Increase?", clearly shows that earthquakes are statistically no different today than before 1914. If anyone claims different, let him post data that show a breakpoint at 1914. If anyone doesn't know what a "breakpoint" is, let him or her PM me and I'll explain.
See if you can start thinking out of the box, saki2fifty. Read Matthew 24 and 25, along with Mark 13 and Luke 21, with fresh eyes. Compare what you read in the New World Translation with what you read in a variety of others. You'll see some things clearly. Jesus' disciples asked him for a sign that that "the end" was about to occur. But rather than immediately telling them about this sign, he warned them of things not to be disturbed about that would occur before "the end" would come. These things are precisely what Jewish apocalypic commentators, for several hundreds years, had been warning about the coming of whatever "end" they had in mind. Such things included famines, pestilences, earthquakes and great wars. So, in contrast to these false apocayptic 'prophets', Jesus' followers should never be worried about the things that Jewish apocalyptic commentators were very worried about, because they were nothing more than what uninspired wishful thinkers were publishing for several hundred years before Jesus came on the scene.
Today the Watchtower Society continues in that same old tradition of attempting to discern the time of Jesus' Coming. They claim that since 1914, a great many horrible things have occurred that are far worse than anything mankind has ever experienced. While many horrible things have occurred, they are not exactly unprecedented. War, famine, pestilence and earthquakes have been part of human existence since time immemorial. There is no evidence that these horrible things have been any worse since 1914 than before that date. Gainsayers are welcome to post their rebuttals, but since readers already know that potential rebutters have no data at their disposal, it would be a wasted exercise.
AlanF
