The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

"which is in effect is the 'faithful slave', ;have actually proclaimed themselves as appointed by unseen forces. This is a proclamation that demands evidence, as to say the least it is rather lacking in Christian humilty for them to take this mantle upon their shoulders. Unless of course you can present factual evidence that Christ chose these ones to represent him as the only true Christians on earth?"

Hmm, self proclaimers? I know of a few of those. It seems there will always be people or groups who discover they are "inspired" and can always find ways to insidiously spread their delusion like a virus to others. It usually has something to do with such proclaimers knocking down strawmen false religion, and cleansing themselves of their evil ways. Many times such people are dynamic/vivacious in their oratory. It seems through reading prophecy in scripture some have a tendency to become hyper-delusional that said scripture is fulfilled to a 'T' in *surprise* them!

such examples include not just the WT, of course, as we all know, ummm, when WAS it that the the 144k or GB or which one friggin is it that is now taught to be the FDS, I can't keep it straight. BUT Charles Taze Russell was believed to be the Faithful and Wise Servant, alone, no "body" or "group" of this or that necessary. Rutherford took pains to point this out.

Anyways, yes, the other self proclaimers who convinced others they were for example

VERNON HOWELL: (AKA David Koresh) sussed out that the scripture in Revelation (which is def. 10 million times more qualified as "prophecy" than "parable" like the FWS) regarding the seventh angels and their messages, clearly, the seventh angel could only have been himself.

He was divinely inspired(don't question it). He was the antitypical David who would lead the people until Christ's coming.
In 1985, he received a vision from God in Israel (where he was at that time) where he was shown divinely that he was Cyrus. The Bible was at this time "opened up" to him. He paralleled Cyrus with Eliakim of Isaiah 22 and from this, the name Eliakim arose. Though his main title was Cyrus.

So, this verse applied to Vernon, God directing "all his ways"
SA 45: 13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the Lord of hosts. (KJV)[11]


Just As Charles Taze Russell was the mouthpiece of God, the FDS, the UPS, the FDA and whatever else:::
". Since the days when in the providences of God our late beloved leader came into prominnce as the chief representative of the Lord’s people and stood before them as “that servant” who had charge of his Master’s goods, every indication of the Lord’s providence has shown that God gave Brother Russell to the church to be as a mouthpiece for him; and those who claim to have learned the truth apart from Brother Russell and his writings have been manifested by the Lord as deceivers, ready to lead the flock of God in their way."

Much like the WT:::

*** The Watch Tower 1917 January 15 p.22 ***
"The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society is the greatest corporation in the world, because from the time of its organization until now the Lord has used it as his channel through which to make known the glad tidings."

*** Watchtower 1952 April 15 p.253 Aids for Understanding Prophecy ***
"Jehovah has provided a channel, the "faithful and discreet slave" class, who are given spiritual "food at the proper time", and this spiritual food includes among other things the understandings of the prophecies in the course of their fulfillments. (Matt. 24:45, NW) Jehovah’s witnesses themselves are not nor can they be interpreters of prophecies. But as fast as the "superior authorities" Jehovah and Christ Jesus reveal the interpretations through their provided channel that fast do God’s people publish them the world over to strengthen the faith of all lovers of righteousness."

Moving down a little, to 1988, he begins to see himself as the Lamb of Revelation, which at this point, he taught was a different being than Jesus Christ.

Being as that he was the Lamb, naturally, he was truly the only one who could interpret Scripture, only him and no one else. The book of Job and Lamentations were books that were "too deep" and forbidden reading by any except himself.

Anyone who tried to interpret/read/understand scripture was ridiculous, because Vernon Howell was the only one who truly understood what it said.

Anyone who denied Brother Russell was the Mouthpiece was getting his chain yanked by Satan

** Watchtower 1922 September 15 p.279 ***
"Since Brother Russell’s death the evidence of God’s favor upon the Society, which was organized by Brother Russell for the furtherance of the Lord’s work, has been manifested as clearly as it was previously upon him. Satan has attempted by many attacks upon this fact to break it down; to cause the Lord’s people to believe: (1) that Brother Russell was not the only channel by which the Lord would lead his people; and (2) that the Society in its organized capacity could not be a channel for the Lord."

When he realised that anyone who went about reading the Bible on their own or heard divergent view than those he had been teaching, there was an immediate and cutthroat ban on listening to anyone with opposing views or former members.

Much like the WT::::

*** Watchtower 1931 November 1 p.327 ***
"Those who oppose The Watchtower are not capable of discerning the truth that God is giving to the children of his organization, and this is the very strongest proof that such opposers are not of God’s organization."

*** Watchtower 1986 March 15 pp.10-15 ‘Do Not Be Quickly Shaken From Your Reason’ ***
" But being in Jehovah’s spiritual paradise is not something we can take for granted. We came into this paradise voluntarily; we can walk right out (or be put out) if we go into unbelief or willfully violate Jehovah’s righteous laws. Of course, this will not happen if we keep strong the ‘love we had at first,’ if we continue to appreciate all of Jehovah’s provisions to keep us spiritually strong. (Revelation 2:4) But the Devil and other opposers of true worship are skilled in deception. We should never forget that they stand ever ready to break our integrity if they can. Their propaganda is designed to weaken our faith, to cool our love for God, to sow doubts in our minds—yes, to make the spiritual paradise appear to be no paradise at all."

*** Watchtower 1986 March 15 pp.10-15 ‘Do Not Be Quickly Shaken From Your Reason’ ***
"Now, what will you do if you are confronted with apostate teaching—subtle reasonings—claiming that what you believe as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses is not the truth? For example, what will you do if you receive a letter or some literature, open it, and see right away that it is from an apostate? Will curiosity cause you to read it, just to see what he has to say? You may even reason: ‘It won’t affect me; I’m too strong in the truth. And, besides, if we have the truth, we have nothing to fear. The truth will stand the test.’ In thinking this way, some have fed their minds upon apostate reasoning and have fallen prey to serious questioning and doubt. (Compare James 1:5-8.) So remember the warning at 1 Corinthians 10:12: “Let him that thinks he is standing beware that he does not fall.”

As David himself said

"God in the flesh! Do you know who I am? God in the flesh! The Word of God in the book has been shown to you. The most powerful of all prophets, the prophet that's found in the books. Lo, in the volume of the book it is written of me, Psalms 40, I come to do thy will Oh God. Thy law, prophecy, is within my heart. Now what better sinner can know a sinner than a godly sinner? Huh?"

Well, the WT hasn't claimed to be God in the flesh, they have their own unique delusions:::
*** Watchtower 1919 April 1 p.6414 ***
"…Is not the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society the one and only channel which the Lord has used in dispensing his truth continually since the beginning of the harvest period?"
"It is the conclusion, therefore, of the Editorial Committee–and in this the officers of the Society concur–that the Society is the Channel the Lord is using to carry on his work; that it has a divine commission, a work to perform, and which it is endeavoring, by the Lord’s grace, to perform."
** Watchtower 1931 November 1 p.327 ***
"The Watchtower is not the instrument of any man or set of men, nor is it published according to the whims of men. No man’s opinion is expressed in The Watchtower. God feeds his own people, and surely God uses those who love and serve him according to his own will."


JIM JONES: Self appointed Messiah again. Thought he was the reincarnate Messiah, buddha, yadda yadda

from :http://www.guyanaca.com/features/jonestown.html

"Jim Jones utilized the threat of severe punishment to impose thestrict discipline and absolute devotion that he demanded, and he alsotook measures to eliminate those factors that might encourageresistance or rebellion among his followers. Research showed that thepresence of a "disobedient" partner greatly reduced the extent owhich most subjects in the Milgram situation (1965) obeyed theinstructions to shock the person designated the "learner." Similarly,by including just one confederate who expressed an opinion differentfrom the majority's, Asch (1955) showed that the subject would alsoagree far less, even when the "other dissenters" judgment was alsoincorrect and differed from the subjects. In the Peoples Temple,Jones tolerated no dissent, made sure that members had no allegiancemore powerful than to himself, and tried to make the alternative ofleaving the Temple an unthinkable option."

*** Watchtower 1980 June 15 p.8 What It Takes to Keep Separate from the World ***
speaking of members who have left or been df'd
" We hate them, not in the sense of wanting to do them harm or wishing them harm but in the sense of avoiding them as we would poison or a poisonous snake, for they can poison us spiritually."

Jim Jones insisted on exclusive devotion, now who else did so? Oh THATS RIGHT

*** You Can live Forever (1982, 1990) p.255 ***
"Do not conclude that there are different roads, or ways, that you can follow to gain life in God’s new system. There is only one. There was just one ark that survived the Flood, not a number of boats. And there will be only one organization — God’s visible organization — that will survive the fast-approaching "great tribulation." It is simply not true that all religions lead to the same goal… You must be part of Jehovah’s organization, doing God’s will, in order to receive his blessing of everlasting life…"

Also look up
SHOKO ASAHARA ...demanded his followers to treat him as the living incarnation of God
SUN MYUNG MOON...."the Savior, Messiah and King of Kings of all of humanity" by God
HERBERT W. ARMSTRONG..."Christ's chosen apostle" to whom the Bible was "a coded message not allowed to be revealed and decoded until this time."
DAVID BRANDT BERG AKA MOSES DAVID....viewed himself as "God's Endtime Prophet."
RENOS AVRAM....Avraam considers himself the "Chosen Vessel of the Remaining Bride" - David Koresh' true successor. He completed a significant theological work of what he calls "hidden manna" of the Seven Seals.. Avraam, who claims to be a prophet, is said to reveal "New Light (New Truth)."
WILLIAM BRANHAM.... proclaimed himself the angel of Revelation 3:14 and 10:7

and always, there are many more delusional nutjobs out there. All self-proclaimed prophets/chosen ones of God.

They can all prove it too.

Before I answer AlanF's questions which have really already been answered (I will do it again in different words for the hard of hearing), let me ask this because it was simply ignored.

AlanF said: conclusive scriptures that I presented in my post # 4170 (page 39 of this thread) that prove that Jesus received all authority shortly after his resurrection.

Before Jesus went to heaven after he was resurrected he said 'All authority has been given me'. How then did he receive more authority after he ascended to heaven as recorded at Daniel 7:13,14, Rev 12? Just where did he go to secure this kingly authority as recorded in Luke 19 if he already had 'all authority' shortly after his ressurection before his ascension to heaven?

thirdwitness: Rev 12

As I have already shown this chapter DOES NOT show Jesus gaining MORE authority. It shows him exercising authority he already possessed. Authority possessed does not equal authority exercised. Just as the salvation and the power did not increase, neither did the kingdom of God nor the authority of Christ increase.

thirdwitness: let me ask this because it was simply ignored.

You are apparently too dense to recognize when someone directly addresses your points, your argument was NOT ignored. The answer was ignored.

Daniel 7:13-14
“I kept on beholding in the visions of the night, and, see there! with the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin."

Please, direct my attention to the portion that could not have been fulfilled after the resurrection of Jesus and LONG prior to 1914. Your unsubstantiated assertions and interpretations about 1914 CREATE the necessity of explaining why Jesus lied in Matthew 28:18. You cannot then hold us to account for an explanation of a contradiction between your own doctrine and what the Bible directly states. The onus is on YOU to explain why he lied, since according to your explanation that is exactly what he did.

AuldSoul

3rd W,

You wrote:

How then did he receive more authority after he ascended to heaven as recorded at Daniel 7:13,14, ; Rev 12? ; Just where did he go to secure this kingly authority as recorded in Luke 19 if he already had 'all authority' shortly after his ressurection before his ascension to heaven?

I think your problem is that you're stuck with the WT mindset. The Society is so narcistically focussed that it sees Daniel being fulfilled in connection with itself instead of in connection with God's Son. The Society just can't see past the mirror to realize that Christ, not the WT Society, is the central issue in Christianity. AlanF has already answered your question several times. I'm amazed that you fail to comprehend his clear answers. For example, in his post #4713 he wrote:

"For this very reason also God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every [other] name, so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." (Philippians 2:9-11)

Because the passage in Philippians uses language virtually identical to that in Daniel 7:13, 14 to describe Jesus' exalted and supreme position as ruler over everything, how can these JW defenders explain that the events described in Daniel were not fulfilled shortly after Jesus' resurrection? Let them explain to their readers exactly how it is that the events described in Daniel, according to their view, were fulfilled beginning in 1914 rather than shortly after Jesus' resurrection.

While you are contemplating the question as to how Jesus received 'all authority' while still on earth and then received more authority and power and kingship after his acsension to heaven I will continue.

There is no doubt that Jesus sat down at the right hand of God after his ressurection. He was in this way exalted over all peoples and authority. Who could argue that. But lets start with Psalms 110:

The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord is:
“Sit at my right hand
Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”

2 The rod of your strength Jehovah will send out of Zion, [saying:]
“Go subduing in the midst of your enemies.”

Christ was to sit at God's right hand until his enemies were placed as a stool for his feet. The sitting at God's right hand happened at his ressurection but his enemies were not placed as a stool for his feet at that time. Not until he would become King upon Mt Zion (heavenly Jerusalem) and rule in the midst of his enemies. This did not happen immediately after his ressurection but was yet future.

ThirdWitness,

Before Jesus went to heaven after he was resurrected he said 'All authority has been given me'. How then did he receive more authority after he ascended to heaven as recorded at Daniel 7:13,14, Rev 12? Just where did he go to secure this kingly authority as recorded in Luke 19 if he already had 'all authority' shortly after his ressurection before his ascension to heaven?

As I say, I am not a believer, but the answer to your question is why Preterism exists as a theological interpretation ( interpretation is all you are doing anyway ). As you admitted you knew nothing about Preterism, or partial Preterism would you not agree that you owe it to the readers on this Board to at least research what Preterists believe about such scriptures, before you come here peddling your own interpretation?

Before you start intoning the 'philosphies of men' accusation, bear in mind that the WTS itself admits to following the philosopies of men, if you would like proof, I am happy to supply it to you. Eventually you may see that where Biblical exegisis is concerned, you cannot seperate the human input in the Scriptures, right from their inception.

HS

PS - How are you doing with W.E.Vine and Matt 28:17?

auldsoul:

Daniel 7:13-14

“I kept on beholding in the visions of the night, and, see there! with the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin."

Please, direct my attention to the portion that could not have been fulfilled after the resurrection of Jesus and LONG prior to 1914. Your unsubstantiated assertions and interpretations about 1914 CREATE the necessity of explaining why Jesus lied in Matthew 28:18. You cannot then hold us to account for an explanation of a contradiction between your own doctrine and what the Bible directly states. The onus is on YOU to explain why he lied, since according to your explanation that is exactly what he did.

You are saying that Daniel 7 happened after Jesus' ressurection. Did Daniel 7:13,14 happen in heaven or on earth? If it happened in heaven (which is obvious) after Jesus' ressurection and ascension then according to you Jesus must've lied when he said before his ascension to heaven, 'all authority has been given me...' You thus do the very same thing that you accuse JWs of doing, you contradict yourself.

Was Jesus given 'all authority' before his ascension to heaven or after?

thirdwitness: While you are contemplating the question...

Your question was rather pedestrian from a current JW to an ex-JW. Banal, in fact. It didn't take long to "contemplate" given that it had already been answered—thoroughly.

thirdwitness: There is no doubt that Jesus sat down at the right hand of God after his ressurection.

Um, yes there is. You may have none, but I have quite a lot. The Psalmist wrote that "The LORD said unto my Lord...", and I know English well enough to know that "said" is past tense. Peter showed that the infilling of the Holy Ghost was proof that Jesus had now received the authority that he said he would receive in Acts 2. John 14 and 16 make clear what the disciples were told to expect when Jesus received his authority. And Jesus stated outright that he had received all authority in Matthew 28:18. Also, the argument in Philippians 2 which AlanF commented on has not been addressed by you (unless I overlooked it).

But what can you possibly do about this?

Ephesians 1:15-23
That is why I also, since I have heard of the faith YOU have in the Lord Jesus and toward all the holy ones, do not cease giving thanks for YOU. I continue mentioning YOU in my prayers, that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give YOU a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him; the eyes of YOUR heart having been enlightened, that YOU may know what is the hope to which he called YOU, what the glorious riches are which he holds as an inheritance for the holy ones, and what the surpassing greatness of his power is toward us believers. It is according to the operation of the mightiness of his strength, with which he has operated in the case of the Christ when he raised him up from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above every government and authority and power and lordship and every name named, not only in this system of things, but also in that to come. He also subjected all things under his feet, and made him head over all things to the congregation, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills up all things in all.

Just because Jesus is still sitting at his Father's right hand does not mean that he has not yet had all things subjected under his feet. The Bible directly states that he HAS had all things subjected under his feet. But you don't like Scriptures that directly disagree with your doctrine, do you thirdwitness? It is easier to ignore them.

Tell, please, in your theology where does Jesus sit AFTER all his enemies are placed as a stool for his feet? By the Father's right hand, or somewhere else?

AuldSoul