The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness 1380 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • thirdwitness

    Steve: In fact, thirdwitness should be disfellowshipped for what he wrote:

    The reality is that even if the faithful and discreet slave has not yet been appointed over all of the master's belongings (as interpreted by some) he has still been appointed to provide the food because he has proven himself to be faithful and discreet.

    Come on Steve. Read my words again. Notice if and (as interpreted by some). Those are the key words.

  • stevenyc

    Try again:
    The interpretation of 'all the belongings' as given to us by the faithful and discreet slave clearly shows us that they believe that they have only been appointed over the earthly belongings of the master because of the increase that their faithfulness has brought.


  • thirdwitness

    Ozzie: Could you point me to where the text of Psalm 110 actually says what you say it says? I understand that Psalm 110 is viewed as concerning the Messianic Kingdom but you go much further than that and I can't see it in the text i.e. reference to the present-day where you equate "people offering themselves willingly" to the door-to-door proselytising of JWs and then "Armageddon" - where is that in the text?

    Ozzie wants a silver platter. You'll never get one. If you ever studied with JWs I think you can connect the dots. The Bible provides ample scriptures showing that Jesus will have an army of kingdom proclaimers who offer themselves willingly to do the preaching work. Jesus doesn't have to use the rocks to cry out.

    Try Matthew 24:14.

  • stevenyc

    Also, by their own definition, the governing body cannot be the faithful and discreet slave.

    You can't worm out of it. Its written in Matthew 24, and their literature for all to see.


  • fjtoth

    I'm surprised that none of you are pointing to the great famines, pestilences, earthquakes, and the fantastic persecution of JWs that all took place in full force in 1914 when the Devil became so angry. He and his army of demons really let it be known immediately in that year that they were not only upset but furious with being confined to this planet. Don't you remember? And things haven't changed since then! Why can't you see it? It's because you don't have the spiritual vision JWs have! You don't study your Bibles deeply enough like each and every JW does!

    It disappoints me that you don't give the Devil more credit. Boy, was he mad! He was spitting nails and breathing fire out of his nostrils. Don't you remember? Why, nearly a third of the earth's population was wiped out in 1914! All of these things were thoroughly convincing that the Society picked the right date. Don't you see? They said the world was coming to an end in that year, and it almost did!

    I know that some of you are scoffing. You say the earth's population is greater than ever despite all that's happened. You say people are living longer now than they have for centuries. You say diseases that have long plagued mankind for centuries are being cured. In your blindness, you go on and on.

    It saddens me that you can't see through all of this and acknowledge that the WT Society was right on the mark. Jesus has returned and you see no evidence that things have changed far, far for the worst. How sad!!!


  • thirdwitness

    To frank:

    Peter 3:3 For YOU know this first, that in the last days there will come ridiculers with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires 4 and saying: “Where is this promised parousia of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep [in death], all things are continuing exactly as from creation’s beginning.”

    It is during the last days which also corresponds with Jesus' parousia that this would be fulfilled. During the parousia people would be saying, 'where is this promised parousia?' You probably don't realize it but you, Frank, and your friends have had a part in fulfilling this prophecy. And for this we thank you.

  • thirdwitness

    Auldsoul said: Someone is not a king until they are enthroned and vested with ruling authority. Jesus was granted all authority in heaven and on earth by the time the events of Matthew 28:18 were recorded. Your imaginary requirement to wait for 1914 is not founded on Scripture. Jesus was already ruling over the kings of the earth in the 1st Century, according to the Bible.

    You may have missed this earlier.

    Notice Revelation 12 which was to occur in the Lord's day after Jesus statement at Matt 28:18. Notice verse 15 And the seventh angel blew his trumpet. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying: “The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.” Chirst was to receive authority in a special way in the future. But is this really so? After Satan is cast out of heaven Revelation 12:10 tells us: And I heard a loud voice in heaven say: Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! So even though Jesus was given authority after his ressurection he did not exercise all his authority until the proper time appointed by his Father. He waited until he received his kingship over God's Messianic Kingdom. And even still he has not exercise all his authority because he has not destroyed all the other kingdoms. (Daniel 2:44) Daniel 7 also shows us that it is during the last wild beast of the earth, the time of the small horn that grows big(Rev 17:10 tells us there would be seven. "And there are seven kings: five have fallen, one is (Rome), the other has not yet arrived (Anglo-american)) that Jesus gains access to the throne of God. Well just notice:

    13 “I kept on beholding in the visions of the night, and, see there! with the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. 14 And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin.

    For further proof of this lets look at an illustration that Jesus gave: Luke 19:

    11 While they were listening to these things he spoke in addition an illustration, because he was near Jerusalem and they were imagining that the kingdom of God was going to display itself instantly. 12 Therefore he said: “A certain man of noble birth traveled to a distant land to secure kingly power for himself and to return. 13 Calling ten slaves of his he gave them ten mi´nas and told them, ‘Do business till I come.’ 14 But his citizens hated him and sent out a body of ambassadors after him, to say, ‘We do not want this [man] to become king over us.’

    15 Eventually when he got back after having secured the kingly power, he commanded to be called to him these slaves to whom he had given the silver money, in order to ascertain what they had gained by business activity.

    Well of course you know the story. He rewarded those who had obeyed his commands. But as for the enemies of his look what happened.

    27 Moreover, these enemies of mine that did not want me to become king over them BRING here and slaughter them before me.’”

    This proves: Jesus would not secure kingly power until sometime after his accension to heaven.

  • fjtoth


    You probably don't realize it but you, Frank, and your friends have had a part in fulfilling this prophecy. And for this we thank you.

    What ARROGANCE!!! Mocking the Watchtower Society's foolishness is now equivalent to mocking Jesus! Only a self-centered and hypocritical cult would make itself equal to God's Son who died for us!

  • AlanF

    thirdwitless wrote:

    : AlanF: You seem to think that the NWT consistently translates Greek words into the same English word.

    : AlanF must be on his way to see the wizard of oz with his strawman. He writes a whole page trying to refute something that I never claimed or said or even thought. Nor does the WT claim this about the NWT.

    A claim of consistency is what your argument as to why the NWT uses parousia everywhere, even when context demands otherwise, is all about. The same goes for the Society's claims. The NWT Reference Bible (Appendix 5B) states:

    The Greek noun parousia literally means a "being alongside," . . . The word parousia occurs 24 times in the Christian Greek Scriptures . . . In these 24 places the New World Translation renders parousia as "presence."

    The book God's Kingdom of a Thousand Years states (ka chap. 11 p. 210):

    In the year 1950, there was published the New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures, with the most authentic reading of Acts 13:20, and translating pa·rou·si´a every time as "presence."

    The NWT contains a completely nonsensical rendering, which I have discussed:

    "What is our hope or joy or crown of exultation"why, is it not in fact you?"before our Lord Jesus at his presence [parousia]?" -- 1 Thessalonians 2:19

    "Presence" in this passage renders it nonsensical.

    The Watchtower crowed about how consistent The Emphatic Diaglott was (w93 5/1 pp. 10-11 Shedding Light on Christ’s Presence):

    In Volume 2 of Studies in the Scriptures, pages 158 to 161, Charles T. Russell, the first president of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, wrote: "Parousia . . . signifies presence, and should never be translated coming, as in the common English Bible . . . The ‘Emphatic Diaglott,’ a very valuable translation of the New Testament, renders parousia properly, presence . . . , not that of coming, as being on the way, but presence, as after arrival . . ."

    Russell's claim that parousia "should never be translated coming" is falsified by modern scholars.

    Your simpleminded dismissal of the information in my post is typical of JW defenders who know they're cornered.

    When are you going to answer my question about whether the 1996 Watchtower on parousia fairly represents Josephus' statements where he uses parousia? You're afraid to, right?


  • Sunspot
    So far, despite making enough comments to fill a good - sized novel, he has said nothing of substance. His "answers" to the various questions others have posted have raised more questions than they have answered. He just seems to quote the same tired old jw rhetoric to every question that's posed to him.

    I see that I'm not the only one who finds this glaringly apparent!

    I keep finding myself surprised when I log on, at how many posts this topic has gathered....and wonder what could possibly be said after all this time...and yet, I keep finding things of interest from the astute-minded and much-smarter-than-me-in-this-stuff minds of former JWs!

    There have been many terrific comments posted by these others in refuting 3rdWit's ramblings, and I have found a LOT to "use" on a JW debate board in the future. Thanks to you all!

    I must say thanks (again) to Frank Toth for his wonderful contributions on this thread.....I really appreciated these!

    Always Learning Annie

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