Hi Shelby,
:Hey, girl… and may you have peace.
Believe it or not Shelby, I hope you have peace too.
:Yeah, we discussed that in the 'other' thread. About how you are frightened… and why.
Yes, I see you have seized on that word "frightened". I would like to change it to disturbed as I real don't feel actual Fear. Does that make me a liar?
:Now, how am I supposed to take THAT? As truth? But then, have you actually shown otherwise? So… help me out here… Nevermind. I guess I know that you do not INTEND to… You might want to check your 'intentions', however.
My 'intentions' Shelby are to get to the truth. It has always been my intnteion especially regarding matters of faith. I will admit that I do not understand at all yours (or anyone's) justifications for the horror stories in the bible and I guess it is the old 'believer' in me hoping there is something that could help to make it all make sense to me. It is not your fault that there is no explanation other than "righteousness" of certain acts that would otherwise be considered horribly evil. I shouldn't blame you for this and I apologize for seeming to do so. You cannot achieve the unachievable anymore than anyone else.
:Call me what you will, Jules… but I abhor 'religion'. Most anyone here can tell you that. And I think I addressed the 'zealot' tendency in the 'other' thread. Better DUCK, girl!
I see. There are plenty of fundies who feel as you do about religion, but I am convinced that if given an inch (i.e.state sandtioned school prayer) they will take a mile (i.e.soon to become state *enforced* school prayer). Mind you this school prayer is just an example. No need to make it your theme as you have the word "frightened".
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I will fight such until my last breath.
:Most certainly. Defend what you believe… with your life. Just don't hypocritically try to prohibit others, including me… from doing the same. Deal?
I say worship or do whatever you want. It is forcing others to believe the same that I would prevent. Perhaps you have the view of never wanting to "force" others but there are many who believe as zealously as you do who would happily force such.
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Ummmmm, could you show me where I said that????
:At risk of being called a 'liar', may I say that the statement was purely rhetorical? But I can 'see' how you wouldn't have seen that.
How convenient. Heaven forbid you should admit to being presumptuous! (Heavan forbid being merely an expression here for all you literalists reading this)
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I do not think war is a good thing and am sickened by all the things you mention here.
:I don't think it's a 'good' thing, either, Jules. Truly, I don't. But if the truth makes you sick…
The truth doesn't make me sick so much as man's inhumanity to man. I was referring to the events you mentioned. Terrible, all of them. I am not "ok" with any of them.
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While I am not a true pacifist
:So, what… you're a 'false' one?
No, I would say "partial" would be more accurate, if there is such a thing. I would only resort to violence as a very last resort in a self-defense or child-defense situation.
:Am I to assume you believe there IS a God? I think we need to establish that, first. Because, if you DO, may I ask how it is that you feel 'righteous' in presuming ANYTHING about Him? Including how He feels about ANYTHING? But, for the sake of … debate… let's say you don't believe. Then if He doesn't exist, He couldn't have anything to do with any of it ANYWAY. Yes?
Frankly Shelby, I don't claim to know if there is a God or not. I can tell you there is much we can know about biblegod, as the whole bible is supposedly about him. Aren't we told to read the bible so we can "know" God? I have read it, what I have come to know of that God doesn't impress me too much.
:I will tell you the truth: He DOES exist… and He HATES it. But… it is what man WANTED… and ASKED for. Kings… to rule over them. And they got what they asked for. Funny, you all don't blame the kings… but blame God. Funny.
I don't blame God for anything. I take responsibilty for my own choices and decisions and teach my kids the same. I believe mankind is responsible for where we are today.
:Ah, yes, back to that previous 'issue'. Were you not the VERY lady who, just some seconds ago, asked ME to not put words in YOUR mouth? You MUST, then, show me were I said God 'likes' it. You must. Otherwise, that makes your hypocrisy 'score' a whopping THREE.
Oh spare me your dramatics Shelby. You were the one who told me that because the woman who drove the tent spike through the guy's head, had a heart filled with love of God, she was indeed holy among women in the tent. That sounds like reward to me Shelby and as far as I know rewards are given when an act is approved and thought highly of.
:May I kindly remind YOU that Sisera ran up in JAEL's tent? She did not go looking for him. And remember, she had NO foreknowledge of what she was to do. "Murder", dear one, suggest and requires premeditation and no indicated threat. Even in THIS time and place. If a man who was MY enemy ran up in MY tent… who's to say what I would have done? Hopefully, I would have the mind of Christ, but in truth, it all depends on just who all he was a 'threat' to. Certainly, as a 'frightened mommy', YOU can see that. Yes?
According to the bible the guy was sleeping when she killed him. Not much of a threat at the time I'd say. I have yet to hear of anyone being harmed by someone asleep. A more civilized, enlightened method may have been to surround the guy at spear-point and imprison him, no?
:From you 'view', perhaps. I think it all depends on what is meant by the word 'innocent'. Because who YOU think to be innocent may not necessarily be whom my FATHER thinks to be innocent.
Ah guilt by association must be what you are getting at. I consider this unjust and I would hope that if there were an all-knowing, far more enlightened being than I he/she would have a better sense of justice than that.
:Do you think the people who caused the WTC disaster 'innocent'? Are there people, though, who do? Do you think the people who dropped the bomb on Hiroshima innocent? Are there people, though, who do?
Of course the people who committed the WTC atrocity are not innocent. Do I think that the children of those terrorists are innocent? Yes they are. To apply bible logic though we would round up the men who did it, their kids, their wives, their livestock and kill them all. As to the Hiroshima bombing, no those people were not innocent, but as I said before the WTC episode has provoked a war while the Hiroshima nightmare ended one. I still wish it hadn't have happened. I consider it one of mankind's darkest hours.
:Then you refer to our little 'exchange', and state:
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Shelby, you are so wrong. I don't hate anyone.
:May I suggest you go back and read some of your posts to me? And then see if you can still say that with a straight face. You might want to review the definition of 'hate', first, before you do.
I hate dishonesty and myth promoted as fact and truth.
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I don't hate god either, I just don't think the bible has anything to do with God.
:Well, I am not so sure about your first statement. Considering some of what you have said, what do you think HE would think? As regards your second statement, it doesn't, to the degree MOST people think. But I have NEVER said it has. In fact, many here will TELL you that it is BECAUSE of the Bible's fallacy… that I have learned simply to listen to my Lord, when HE speaks. I do not rely on the 'stone tablets' and 'law written in ink'. Stick around, Jules, and you will find that out.
Really? By the way you have tried to dance around and explain away horrific acts in the bible that were condoned and/or ordered by biblegod one would be likely to ASSUME otherwise. Perhaps a more honest answer in the beginning would have avoided much of this exchange.
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First of all Shelby I am no child. I am 38 years old and don't take kindly to being addressed as "child", especially by the likes of you.
:The "likes" of me. Sigh! I am a black woman, dear one. And perhaps you didn't know that. It was a 'term of endearment'. Maybe I should have written it, 'chile'. Drat! that 'whitebread' education!
No Shelby I must confess I didn't know that. I guess that is why you have been, in an oh-so-subtle way, been playing a race card (that whole "whitebread" business). I am white and think no different of anyone over the color of their skin. I wouldn't care if you were green.
:You quote me further, with regard to someone threatening the life of our children, and respond:
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I am with you there Shelby. I pity the person who tries to hurt either of my beloved children.
:So, what… you might… ummmm… 'murder' someone in this case? You?
Actually I would try to get away first and if that didn't work a hard knee to the groin, then one to the nose while bent over from the groin kick would be my next plan of attack, just time to get away. To kill another would be only if mine or my children's life were in imminent danger. Not if someone I considered the enemy was sleeping in front of me.
:And you are to be commended for that, truly. I have taught mine the same. And in 24 and 19 years, my daughter has had only ONE altercation… and my son… none. And like I said, we're black. THAT… is rare.
I will agree with you here Shelby. My daughter thinks black people's skin is very beautiful and once told me she wished she had it. I was deeply saddened to have to tell her that no, she did not because life is often way harder for folks of color and that is a sad testimony of our world today. Of course my girl has such a tender loving heart she doesn't understand how someone could hate another over skin color. I explained no one is born that way, hate is learned.
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You said: God... does not speak to me.
:Actually, Julie, I think I acknowledged Him speaking at least once. I did, yes?
I was merely quoting you Shelby.
:You then quote me again, regarding what took place and who spoke to me… and respond
:You know, Jules, I was trying to figure out just what the HECK you were referring to, and then my Lord says to me, "You know, SHE thinks because the Father and I are 'one' that we are the same individual, and that in one instance you are saying God does not speak to you, but are turning around and saying you heard such and so from me."
I see, so it is Jesus who speaks to you. Gotcha.
:Well, THAT explains it! Julie, my Father… God… JAH OF ARMIES… and my Lord… His SON… JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH… are NOT the same individual. By NO means. My Father, JAH, has spoken to me, I think, on two occasions. The first one I remember VERY clearly and have posted it here on jw.com… somewhere. It was when He 'sent' His Son to me. At that time, I heard BOTH voices. Only once since then, I think, have I heard both voices, but I can't remember the event. I only remember it, because I was SHOCKED, because the Father does not normally speak. He has one that speaks FOR Him, His Son, my Lord, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH, the One of whom He said: "This is my Son; listen… to HIM."
Wow Shelby, you must be incredibly special. As we speak a child is being beaten and raped somewhere in the world and God or Jesus would be talking to you but doesn't lift a finger to stop the atrocities going on around us. I wouldn't worship a God or his son who had such priorities.
:You can 'see' that already? Then why did you bother? I mean, isn't your time precious? Mine is, and there are many folks who WANT me to share, so I don't particularly like wasting time on those who don't.
I think it would have been more accurate of me to say: I see you can offer no explanations for the atrocities in the bible that we haven't seen served up by every other fundie on the board. Hope springs eternal I guess. My fault.
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You are OK with "righteous", "holy" violence
:Okay with it? I think my phrase was (a la Chris Rock)… "while I don't AGREE with it, I understand it." I did say that, yes?
LOL, He is a funny dude. I caught that routine too. Did you see when he talked about a black vice-president? Hilarious! On the other hand, I guess I assumed you were "ok" with it since it doesn't seem to make you think such a violent God is unworthy or worship.
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which makes you no better than those Islamic Militant zealot bastards.
:But… you don't 'hate' anybody, right, Jules? Julie, one of the SWEETEST men I know is a Muslim. And he is also one of the gentlest. He would never DREAM of engaging in such conduct. But even so, I don't think the 'bastards' that you refer to are any more reprehensible than the ones from THIS country who sell arms to keep conflicts going around the world, arms that kill innocent women and children EVERY day… for the sake of oil… and world domination. Perspective, honey. Yours seems to be a bit… clouded. Maybe it's all that non-hatred you got going on.
Oh Shelby, do not twist my words. Did I say all Muslims are bad, or evil? No. The Militant Zealots are the ones I have a problem with. I cannot understand why they are so filled with hate when Islam is not about hate and violence.
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And you obviously feel that methods of deception are OK too.
:Uh, oops… here goes that 'putting words in mouths' thing again. Julie's Hypocrisy… four.
No honey, I was referring to your claim that God doesn't speak to you . Here in this very post you now tell me he has. Twice even. I think that qualifies as deceptive. Don't you?
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I guess you can take the zealot out of the cult but you can't take the cult out of the zealot.
:Well, I don't know that that would apply to the Taliban. They seem to still be fairly steeped in both.
I think they are lunatics who want to turn the clock back 1000 years.
: And I think some of the "American' cult… uh, 'culture'… is just as dangerous.
Indeed, the emphasis put on materialism (among other things) is pretty harmful.
:Ask the little girl depicted on the cover of the Life magazine running down the street after being doused with napalm… by a people who had NO interest in a war… that was not declared ON them.. or BY them.
Shelby, you can believe this or not but such photos make me cry. I can hardly bear to see suffering. I'd rather endure it than see others suffer it. It is easier for me. I have a very soft heart and it can be very painful.
:You're 38? May I ask, girlfriend, were have you BEEN?
Well let's see, I didn't waste any of my life in the closed world of a cult nor have I spent my time enjoying hallucinations. I am very active in my community, doing charity work and helping where ever I can. We just get by financially but such is unimportant to me. I read the papers, watch the news, read lots of books and talk to fellow humans every day. Why do you ask?
:Okay, now I am almost inclined to say you're lying. You keep SAYING things like this, but your WORDS prove otherwise…
I know you must think I wish you ill Shelby and I am sorry you think so. I merely will call you on the assertions you make. Remember the burden of proof rests on the one making the assertion. Make all the bold assertions you wish Shelby but be prepared to back it up.
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but know this, you and your ilk will never make progress in implementing your lunacy into the secular world
:Hey, guys… I 'got ilk' again! And THIS time, it's tantamount to Islamic (we 'think') terrorism!
Again Shelby, I do not consider all of Islam to be terrorists. Hardly. Here in Michigan we have many Muslims, and we have more Arab-Americans than any state in the union. They are fine people so quite trying to play that card. It is the hard-core zealots I have a problem with. The same goes for any religion as far as I am concerned.
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as long as reasonable thinking people live to stop you
:"Stop" me, how, Julie? I have my ideas as to what you are alluding to, but then, YOU don't like killing and violence, right. So, I'm curious: "stop" me, how?
Oh that's an easy one Shelby. Here in the civilized world we rely on such methods as legislation. Let me ask YOU, where have you been?
:Girlfriend, you ain't said nuthin' but a word. Stick a fork in ME, 'cause I can be as 'done' with this... as you can.
Obviously I am not.
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Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.
:Are you SURE, Jules? Or have you, like so many others, succumbed to the thinking that "injustice HERE - in America - is a threat to justice - everywhere American SAYS it is?"
How presumptous and self righteous of you to assume my world view is merely of the US. Yes, I am sure, as was Martin Luther King, the man I quote there. He too apparently had a problem with injustice. Gee can a white person actually consider a black man to be a Hero? Is that ok with your view Shelby ?
:Yes, dear one. We turned on the TV and saw a MASSIVE devastation that took THOUSANDS of life in a few moments. And we were DEVASTATED. Tell me, are we DEVASTATED every time a bomb… an AMERICAN bomb… goes off in Palestine? Israel? Are we DEVASTATED when the President drops a bomb on innocent people to remove attention from his sordid affair with an intern? Are we DEVASTATED when an oil company that we spend BILLIONS of dollars supporting wipes out two tribes in Africa in order to forcefully obtain land for drilling oil? Are we DEVASTATED when it is purely 'earthling' man that is being massacred? Or are we only 'devastated'… when it is an American 'earthling' man?
Again, very presumptuous of you. I do not like bombing anyone. I saw a documentary recently on how things really are in Afghanistan. I wept bitterly for what some of those people are enduring. So many innocent victims! Oh and Clinton ordered the bobming for the same reason we'll soon be at war with Afghanistan. If you will recall we had a couple of embassies wiped out. But it wasn't here in America so maybe you didn't know. Why don't you widen your world view friend? It was Africa.
:Game. Set. Match.
Spare me Shelby. You have accomplished nothing. I have dispelled your claims to my hypocrisy. You'll have to shoot for something else.
Please limit your delusions to your lord.
Julie, who looks forward to Shelby's reply
