I think it is good....and bad. I don't think people should be thrown out of their church because some guy says God doesn't want or love you anymore. I know that all people make mistakes and I would not be one to judge another human being. On the other hand I think it is a good idea because hopefully when a person is excommunicated maybe that person will realize that they can have a relationship with God without being tied to a religion or church.
Excommunication is good!!!!
by I-follow-the-narrow-path 81 Replies latest jw friends
-
-
bebu
Once in the JWs it is hard to leave gracefully.
This says it all!!
The term "disfellowship" is one that is not in the Bible; it has been created by the WTS.
The Bible says not to eat with brothers who are unrepentant in sinning. It does NOT say to disfellowship a brother who eats with such a person.
What is more, it does NOT say to disfellowship a brother who eats with another brother who has eaten with such a person. Again, it does not say to disfellowship anyone for asking questions, and it does not say to disfellowship a brother for eating with a person who has asked questions. Or for eating with a person who has eaten with a person disfellowshiped for asking questions. These are incredible man-made rules, and the fallout is destroying families.
Jesus healed a blind man, but the pharisees kicked the blind man out of the synagogue (excommunication). So many strict rules blinded the pharisees ('organization'). Read John chapter 9 and see that it is JESUS, not another man or organization, whose voice you must follow.
bebu
-
Finally-Free
JW children who have been raped by adult JWs are warned to keep silent, and they are shunned if they speak about it. Meanwhile, the adult JW pedophile remains in good standing in the congregation. Some are even elders. The society will even protect them in court.
It's hard for me to think of anything on earth that is more obscene than the watchtower cult. I'm very happy that I excommunicated them!
W
-
fullofdoubtnow
Elizabeth, you said
People can not brainwash you, for we control are own actions. Understand? <BR>
I control what I think, how I feel, how I talk and no one else.
For most people, that is true. But when you get deeply involved in a cult like the jws, and they are a cult, however much they may claim to the contrary, you will be brainwashed. You have to be prepared to give up control of your life to join. Independent thinking is not allowed in the wts, and ir anyone persists on such a course, they are disciplined and eventually disfellowshipped. The title of your thread is "excommunication is good!!" Do you seriously think that excommunicating someone for thinking for themselves is good? Is it just? Think about it. The jws only accept submissive people: they have no interest in anyone who wants to think for themselves.
Linda
-
Swan
While talking to my teacher today we talked about excommunication. I told her I thought it was mean to not talk to those members which have been excommunicated. She told me; however, that those who leave the church should be punished. And it is good not to talk to them, because then they understand what their actions do. (not quoting exactly, but roughly what we talked about). What you guys think of her saying that?
Something you may want to consider is that these people are punished for a whole range of "offenses" and not just the worst. Your teacher's husband mentioned adultery. Yes, that is an act of betrayal and disloyalty that can cause a lot of heartache and punishment in and of itself. But is that the only thing they shun people for? Consider these actions that can and have resulted in shunning.
A patriotic young man enlists in the military after 9/11, and is willing to give his life for his country, his fellow Americans, and even for the freedoms that Jehovah's Witnesses take for granted. He is shunned.
A young man enlists in the military, never goes to war, never kills anybody. He is shunned.
A woman gives her child a life saving blood transfusion after a car accident. She is shunned.
A young man, refuses the draft, but accepts service in a VA hospital as a conscientious objector.
A woman accepts a life saving operation, and in the process receives a new organ as a transplant. She is shunned. (This has happened in the past.)
A young girl trying a cigarette behind the school due to peer pressure. She is spotted and reported to the elders, and she tells them she is sorry. But the elders don't believe she is truly repentant. She is shunned.
A young man is told by an elder that his hair is a bit too long and to get it cut. The young man refuses. He is shunned.
An elder warns parents in his congregation that one of their members is a pedophile. He is shunned.
These are some of the reasons people are shunned that your teacher and her husband are not telling you about. I hope this helps with your research.
Tammy
-
Double Edge
I am trying to finish the project of getting closer to God... it is not as easy on my own.
Sure it is possible, but is so much easier and nicer to have others help you.I applaud you... it is most admirable to get close to God. But don't settle for something 3rd rate. There are many, many other avenues you need to explore to make an informed and just decision to reach your goal. I've never been a dub, I enjoy a relationship with the Creator; in fact almost everyone who does have a relationship is looking to get closer to Him. But that takes a life time. You're just starting out. Listen to those who have gone down the JW road before you. Don't make the same mistakes..... if you do, you'll find you have wasted precious time.
You critizing the WTBS feels like you attacking God... I don't know why it feels that way. It just does. And those are hard insults to take, but I will try and listen carefully.
God is not being attached. Real truth will hold up to criticism.... the WTBS is found lacking. Keep an open mind, don't settle for a clunker when you can have a Mercedes if you take the time to search for the real treasures in life.
-
KW13
Excommunication isn't education.
anyway, hope your on msn tonight. willing to listen and chat.
-
Abaddon
Joe Grundy
I liked what you said - but don't blame yourself. It is enough that you would have done that had you known.No one could reasonably expect you to know everything.
Elizabeth
Your responses are interesting;
I control what I think, how I feel, how I talk and no one else.
So you're saying that the contact you have with Witnesses, and your growing belief in what they say does NOT control how you think and feel? To me it sounds very much like you're being controlled.
I read light stuff though... about cults and brainwashing. I do not believe any of it
So are you saying there's no such thing as cults? Or that JW's are not a cult? What about Mormons, Moonies and Sociologists? Are they cults? If so, what is the difference between those characteristics that make them cults and those of the JW's?
Being saved is not my ultimate goal here, for I already am anyway (in heaven) :) AND I do not say that because of the JWs.
Errr... Newsflash. JW's do not believe in being 'saved'. They believe a small number (144,000) go to heaven to rule over humanity after Armageddon. Most of those have already died. Now there are a little under ten thousand JW's who claim to be of 'the remnant'. In JW land if you think you're going to heaven and are young or new, people will think you are mad. All other JW's believe they will live forever in Paradise on Earth.
I wanted to know (assuming I would go through) I used to be a self harmer (in remission now). Under a lot of stree
If you look into cults you will find people are most likely to get involved in a cult after some personal crisis. They provide simple solutions and answers, even if there are no simple solutions or answers. A hope. A way to feel better about the future. A comfort. A kiss in the darkness of the world.
I come out of remission... what if the congregation saw I cut myself. Would they call that a misuse of blood? Would I be disfellowshipped? Can one before baptism get disfellowshipped?You have to be baptised to be disfellowshipped. Cutting would not be considered a disfellowshipping offence, as far as I know. Also, if you have suddenly found 'the Truth', why would you be self-harming again? Surely such a wonderful thing would make all those awful tensions only cutting can release be easier to handle? Or is it that you now feel you have all these new requirements to live up to, a conflict between how you feel and how your family would feel? More stress? Is being involved with the Witnesses part of your relapse? Your whole body and mind are telling you something. Listen.
I totally understand when people say I do not need an organization. But look at it this way
You have a big project do at school and you can not get it done in the one weekend. So you ask for help (org)
I am trying to finish the project of getting closer to God... it is not as easy on my own.Although I am not what one could call a great believer, the idea of getting closer to god being a 'project' strikes me as a little odd. It sounds awfully mechanical, rule-based, like a tick on a list. The Organisation of the JW's will provide you with lots more mechanical, rule-based, box ticking.
Where did you get the idea that developing a relationship with god is based on rules? Doesn't the whole of the New Testament scream about the possibility of a personal relationship with god? Not only available through the services of Priests and rule makers; look at how Jesus acted toward the Priests and the Pharisees!
Think about it. Jesus came to free people from rule-based bureaucratic religious observance, to develop a personal relationship with god, and to conduct themselves rightly through the application of their conscience.
And now many religious groups are rule-based bureaucratic organisations, having completely missed the entire point of what Jesus was talking about. And the JW's are one of those.
God is not a brand or project. Don't look for him as you imagine him, or how people tell you he is. Look for him in the world around you. Truth isn't in a book. It's in living life as best you can, of touching others and allowing oneself to be touched, or valuing others and oneself. Of finding a place.
I wish I could tell you it is easy. It isn't. But just as sweetener doesn't taste like sugar. the artificial hope these people are selling might give you the props to make it easy to act like you are happy, but they have no substance. JW's have missed the point and lost god, whatever god is, in a host of rules, just like the Pharisees did in Jesus' day.
JW's cannot show in any way they are infallible and god appointed; there are dozens of religions who make this claim and none of them have any more real evidence than the other. God doesn't play games or make you guess. If there was a 'truth' in a book, it would be as provable as the fact the sun will rise.
All the more indication you have to figure it out for yourself. Harsh but fair, sad but true.
You critizing the WTBS feels like you attacking God... I don't know why it feels that way. It just does.
Because they are controlling the way you think. Early on in their contact with people JW's will give the person they study with the impression they are likely to experience disapproval or opposition from friends and family, maybe even spiritual problems, as the wicked spirit of the world tries to dissuade the person from getting involved in the truth. Any opposition will reinforce any beliefs that person has about it being the truth.
Of course, if someone got involved with a bunch of cultists - let's assume we can both agree Moonies are cultists - who would try and convert them, and their friends and family were concerned with the person's safety and well-being. It would be perfectly reasonable for them to be critical or oppose the involvement. If the Moonies had told the person they would be opposed, the fact people are doing totally reasonable thing is seen by the person involved with the cultists as evidence the Moonies is the 'truth'.
I just do not understand, if it is "the faithful and descreet slave" Who are you to judge God?
You seem to have made an awful lot of assumptions about god yourself.
All the best to you; please, talk to the people you love about this, and about you starting self-harming again if they don't already know. Did you get counselling before? You should speak to your councillor. Don;t give into the paranoia the JW's try to infect you with. Professionals and your family are there to help you. -
kid-A
Narrow, leaving the JWs is a process, similar to the stages of grief:
1. We have a sense of "stability" when we are still in the psychological protection of the JW mental constructs. Our universe makes sense, we are secure in our isolated cocoon and closed "JW Universe"
2. Sometimes, our minds (usually beginning at a subtle, subconscious level) begins to question the doctrines we are being repetitively taught. We find ourselves immobilised with fear at the realization this may not really be "the truth".
3. We enter a phase of active "denial", we cant accept the words of dissenters, apostates, anything contradictory to the ideas with which our minds have been conditioned by the organization.
4. We become angry once it starts setting in that we have been duped into this belief system and have sacrificed so much of our lives to this cult.
5. We may enter a "bargaining" phase: OK jehovah, just give me some sign that this "is the truth" and I will erase these evil doubts from my mind.
6. The bargaining inevitably fails, and we may get depressed realizing what the consequences will be: losing our friends and family, shunning, loss of social support, etc.
7. We start "testing" other ways of thinking, perhaps experiment with other religions, agnosticism, atheism, etc etc.
8. Finally, with time, we accept our new selves and our new ways of thinking, being liberated from the psychological chains of a controlling cult.
Many posters on JWD have started out posting at level 1, and left at level 8. Some skip stages, some never get beyond stage 1. But I think we all find ourselves at one of the stages during our exit process.
-
I-follow-the-narrow-path
Abaddon
"So you're saying that the contact you have with Witnesses, and your growing belief in what they say does NOT control how you think and feel? To me it sounds very much like you're being controlled."
I am not controlled... merly learning. For example: I decide to study Greek mythology (maybe I am interested)
And so I ask someone to teach me about it. I start learning more and more.
It is like that... I am just learning, does that mean I am controlled? Of course NOT.
Do the JWs tell me who to hang out with, NO
Do they tell me what to wear, NO
Does the bible tell me these things though, yes
So yes, I am controlled, but not by JW- By God. I can not be selfish I must be selfless.
"So are you saying there's no such thing as cults? Or that JW's are not a cult? What about Mormons, Moonies and Sociologists? Are they cults? If so, what is the difference between those characteristics that make them cults and those of the JW's?"
What I am saying is that JW is not a cult, NOT that cults do not exist. :) Well.... I do not know much about Mormons or Moonies... Are they a cult?
"Or is it that you now feel you have all these new requirements to live up to, a conflict between how you feel and how your family would feel? More stress? Is being involved with the Witnesses part of your relapse?"
Well... I go into relapses when there is a lot of stress. Just adapting to the new enviorment would be somewhat stressful. Sometimes it is hard for me to get close to people. This is because when I first meet someone I really like them, but then find their faults and can be somewhat withdrawn. It happens with everyone at some point. I don't really hang on to friends long.
"Because they are controlling the way you think. Early on in their contact with people JW's will give the person they study with the impression they are likely to experience disapproval or opposition from friends and family, maybe even spiritual problems, as the wicked spirit of the world tries to dissuade the person from getting involved in the truth. Any opposition will reinforce any beliefs that person has about it being the truth."
I do not think that is true... I think that myself... whatever I write is my own words, NOT what the JWs. I mean sure... they tell me a lot of stuff and I believe it, but let me give you an example:
I am having trouble with a problem in class. The teacher (being more intelligent than I) comes over and helps me with the problem. Telling me exactly how to do the problem. Step by Step.
Am I to question someone who is more advanced than myself?
"Did you get counselling before? You should speak to your councillor"
Yes, I have seeked counselling.. went to 4 meetings. Than I missed one and my parents forgot about it
They saw me cut again and I asked them to take me to someone, but they said it wouldn't helped, if it didn't help before
BUT that was the only conselor I talked to... 4 meetings MUST show improvment, right?
EXTRA NOTES:
I really like the JW... exspecially my instructor, she makes me feel happy
Honestly, I think I am closer to her than I am to my own family.
I have a lot of issues, I get attached to easily. I know soon I will NOT like the new people I met
I will find their faults and want to avoid them. I can't help that.
I like comfort from others, but resent the responsibility being a friend,
Besides the JWs being so nice to me I think the reason I stay is because
They are very logical... all there facts (yes I say facts) are clear and logical
I think religion is good for a person like me, because it will keep purpose in my life
I think belonging to a group like JW will make me feel safe and secure
Other churchs (or congregations) I have visited are not as welcoming
I like being with people who accept me right of hand vs. having to get to know people
I like making friends right away... I do not like trying to see if a relationship will work.
