It needs to be remembered that these teachings are not straight from the bible, but rather interpretation of bible scripture.
For instance, Russell taught that those that died in the flood will be resurrected where Rutherford said they won't. Russell said that most of mankind will survive Armageddon, whereas Rutherford changed it to only be a few JWs.
In regards to disfellowshipping, Paul is very clear that d/f people can be talked to. 1 Cor only implies that people calling themselves "brothers" should not be socialised with. In Thessolonians Paul even showed that apostates can be spoken to. There is only one scripture that says not to say hi to a person, and that was discussing the AntiChrist. (see http://jwfacts.com/index_files/disfellowship.htm )
The WTS has a cold and heartless doctinal structure that is not bible based, yet by rhetorical lines of argument followers are conned into reading into scripture what is not there.
As a JW how do/did you feel about 6 billion people being destroyed?
I was Very lucky to have rational, loving parents and Grandmother. When this bothered me deeply as a young child (my other grandparents were not JW's, but Good, loving people, etc) they reassured me that God was loving and just, and he knew everyone's heart. The JW's were always harping that the old covenant was done away with, but failed to take in the overwhelming message of the New Testament: LOVE! - A big part of my finally allowing myself to fade away.
jwfacts: Your comments remind me of the saying that 'we don't see things the way they are, we see them the way WE are'. You would like the Bible to contain nothing that supposedly comes from god as being cold and heartless, and yet that is far from the case. Anyone reading 1 Corinthians 5:11 without any pre-suppositions, would interpret it as commanding Christians to shun fellow believers who practice the "sins' listed by Paul in that verse. This is quite obviously an extremely harsh Bible policy, but nowhere near as harsh as the way the Bible decreed 'sinners' should be treated under the Mosaic law. At Deuteronomy 21:18-23, god is portrayed as telling the Israelites to stone rebellious children to death, and then hang their dead bodies upon a tree. Clearly, the Bible is not sentimental about handing down extremely harsh punishments to people who don't do as they're told. The Bble's disfellowshipping ordinance at 1 Corinthians 5:11, seems quite tame when compared to the innumerable other barbarities that it says god decreed.
When I ask "born-again" Christians about their belief that 6 billion (or more , including those that had died already) will be tortured forever in hellfire they always seemed quite relaxed about this - the usual answer (if they bothered to answer) is along the lines that "this was God's will & who are we to judge the Almighty" so in comparison , the JW doctrine is very mild!
Having said that - most JWs I know do struggle with this concept - I do. I know at least one brother who left the truth because he could not understand why God would destroy his family (they were not JWs). Many (privately) think that not all will be destroyed. It is very difficult to rationalise a belief in a loving , just God with the central bible doctrine that Jesus will return and all who took "no note" or who are "wicked" will be destroyed.
Does anyone know how many people are gonna die in christendoms eyes?
How many without christ is he gonna kill? 1 billion, 3 billion? Remember now, "narrow is the road leading to life and few are the ones finding it".
I see little difference in christendoms theology compared to the dubs other than the dubs feel more will die than christendom does.....however BOTH groups teach the majority will die at gods hands.
This was another teaching I did not feel was scriptural but kept my mouth shut. After all, the WTS had been wrong about 1975 (I lived through that as an adult).
I always emphasized that the judging would not be done by humans, but by God and that just because a person was baptized, attended meetings, commented at meetings, and put in the unofficial quota of 10 hours a month, was no proof their heart was with God and Jesus. I always reminded JWs that were rushing to "judgment" that they were consigning their non-JW friends, parents, children, grandchilden to Gehenna.
I was never surprised to hear them say that their comments did not apply to these people. Duh? Is God only going to destroy the non-JWs they don't know or like?
I was a firm believer in the statement that God did not want anyone to die.
Another note: the change in the teaching of when the separating work started from 1914 to the right after the GT starts was a relief to many JWs who thought that any non-JWs that died before Armageddon went straight to Gehenna because from 1914 to Armageddon was considered a "judgment period." Did you know that the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, the periods before the first and second destruction of Jerusalem were considered "judgment periods"? According to WTS doctrine, people who die during judgment periods will die forever, eternally, straight to Gehenna.
I wonder what the answer to this would be if you were to question active dubs, *Honest* active dubs. Would they find it as revolting as us ?
The thing is, is that the WTS uses euphemistic words and phrases, such as "Satan's system" and "destroy" or "destruction" when discussing these matters. They never really come right out and say "g0d is going to murder everybody except JW's", so I think if you posited this question to a rank-and-file JW, the response would likely be along the lines of "oh, well, we don't believe that..." and they're really not being completely dishonest. Because, this euphemistic phrasing in the publications gives them just a tiny little bit of mental wiggle-room so that, as long as they don't think too deeply about it, they don't really have to believe that their kindly non-JW coworker or the pimply teenager who lives next door are gonna get whacked. But not thinking about it too deeply is the key, or keeping that aspect of their beliefs so comparmentalized that it becomes a sort of schizophrenic fragmentation, where they believe it in a fantasy-world sense but not in a real-world sense, but without being fully conscious of this compartmentalization.
There are some dubs who do think about it deeply, and are not disturbed by this scenario, they are the unfeeling JW Vulcans for whom the fantasy becomes full-on reality, the kool-aid drinkers if you will.
DOZY - For your info, I am a born again Christian and no, I don't believe that God will roast people forever, not the God I know and love, even if some people (Oh, like the freakin' guv body) need to be barbequed extra crispy but that's not for me or any human to decide. God is in control and I trust him. I think it's arrogant for us to think we know 100% what will happen. As a JW I didn't believe Jehovah would wipe out the majority of the earth's population, it made no sense to me. I thought it was sick how 'happy' 'the friends' got when tragic things happened on the news. For example, after 9/11, had a JW say, 'Well look on the bright side, at least they have a hope of a ressurection and they won't die now at Armageddon!' And they call themselves loving? Their hope of paradise is directly linked to the eternal destruction of billions - what a sick, twisted, warped organization. I thank God everyday that I'm free.
Scout575, I think I am supposed to take your statement as a compliment. I have to agree with you that the OT was far more Barbaric. That was really bought home to me when someone posted a clip of an African woman being stoned to death. I can not think of many more shocking ways to die.
Before my committee meetings with 3 elders I had a meeting with 2 elders who were trying to encourage me to come back to meetings. When I bought this issue up one of the elders told me that the 6 billion deserve to die. In WWII it was shown that the Germans willingly followed Hitler in their despicable acts and all worldly people are like that. That comment made me so angry, I could not look at him in subsequent committee meetings without seething inside. Even now just thinking of him makes my blood boil. Every time he looked at me I could see he was thinking that I deserve to die too.
Victorian sky: You say that you 'thank god every day that you're free' of the JW religion. As a 'born again' Christian you believe in the Bible. Look at what the Bible says Jesus will do to people who don't practice Christianity: "Depart from me, ye cursed, into EVERLASTING FIRE, prepared for the devil and his angels." ( Matt 24:41) "VENGEANCE on them that..obey not the gospel...punished with EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION." ( 2 Thess 1: 8,9 ) "SMITE the nations...rule them with a ROD OF IRON... he treadeth the winepress of the FIERCENESS and the WRATH of Almighty God." Victorian sky, have you jumped out of the frying pan and into the fire? If Jesus is portrayed as such a bloodthirsty avenging warrior, I'm sure he wouldn't bat an eyelid at something as comparitvely tame as disfellowshipping and shunning those Christians who abandon Christian 'standards'.