Health Care: A Right or a Privilege?

by prophecor 401 Replies latest members politics

LDH

Hey Viv, it is nice to see you posting again.
Right now I have a fantastic job, I am able to save, plan, invest and buy lots of cool things like a house at the same time. But I have not always been in this place. Two years ago I could barely manage to pay my bills and my mum frequently saved me from bankruptcy.
I have been there too--but my point is not everyone who is poor is poor because of 'circumstances.' There are many choices that people make on a daily basis that dictate their long term life style.
Starbucks, or home made?
Red Robin, or bring from home?
People are not reading the part where I said I was a single working mother for 7 years--eh?
I'm skeptical of people who I see making poor choices on a daily basis and then always blaming the 'man' when they run out of money. This doesn't mean ALL people. There should be and there is a safety net for those who through no fault of their own, find themselves on hard knock times.
I'm not convinced the safety net should extend to those who have made poor choices their habit.
Also, don't think it doesn't happen the other way. The company I work for paid the largest single claim in their history this year. A family who had NEVER had coverage because they 'couldn't afford it' -- was finally bothered by their 'pesky broker' and decided to buy coverage. Less than 60 days later, the husband had a perforated bowel, and 6 months later emerged from the hospital to the tune of $1,400,000 of which he has to pay $5000, his out of pocket max.
Do you think he complains about his premium now?
Lisa
Terry

I think we fail to see what we are really discussing here.
What we are really talking about is creating an IDEAL (a potential) and treating it as though it is an ACTUAL alternative.
Healthcare is just one of many nametags you can place on this kind of reasoning.
There is no perfect anything and won't be. Essentially this is because the cause and effect nature of existence is purposeless and chaotic at root.
We desire this to be otherwise, naturally. But, getting carried away in our imaginations won't make anything happen to change it.
What is reality?
Socialism drives away innovation and chases out achievement because the producers and creators are drained of their assets by the drag of being overburdened by the non-producers. In short, they go someplace else. Pretty soon the socialist society becomes bottom heavy and collapses.
In a kill and eat world you have to get your hands red in order to eat. Failure (or inability to do so) leads to consequences that aren't pretty.
We all "wish" it was a different sort of world. That doesn't make it any less real.
We get the sort of life we deserve IN THE CONTEXT of what is real, never in the context of the IDEAL.
Thinking in terms of the IDEAL (the potential) will only drive us to the crazy side of every issue and radicalize us.
When people start telling us how to spend our money and begin moving our property to other people (for whatever reason) they've overstepped reality. It is a kind of smiling theft for a "good cause". Nobody has a right to anything in this world.
Weakness doesn't entitle you to anything but the consequences. It stinks and it isn't pretty, but, it is reality.
If the strong carry the weak....who will carry the strong as they weaken in the effort?
Draw the line between the ideal and the actual or your thinking will sicken and become corrupted by your own conceptual pollution.
Terry
Vivamus

This debate runs through this country at the same time. If I compare our countries, I'd say Holland is far better off. Our definition of poverty is a whole lot faster accomplished then yours (or so I think). When a family needs to come by at 20 euro's a week, we call that poor (Thats after all rent and obligations are paid, so just for groceries).
Our minister Zalm just said that we need to toughen up, back in his days, his mum could not even afford coffee, so what the fuck are we complaining about..... And maybe he is right, one can certainly keep alive of those 20 euro's but it isn't a comfortable life. Of that money you cannot afford to buy olives for a salad or so to speak. Now, in this country if these people get sick, they have their buts covered cuz of our social system. If they get sick, their entire bills will be paid. All of it, their is no case in which you get sick here and need to pay 5000 on medical bills while insurance covers the rest.
But still, even if you are diligint with money, work hard and do your utter best ... sometimes you just can't reach that better way of ife, that better job. You need luck. Like I said, I don't know the system in America. I am just saying that people do not always control their own destiny.
Vivamus

Draw the line between the ideal and the actual or your thinking will sicken and become corrupted by your own conceptual pollution.

First of all, quite annoying reading text in that font ... Second of all, there is nothing wrong with thinking in ideals, the only way to improve a society is when people have ideals.
But I agree in one thing, thre is no point in arranging your life and making decisions based on ideal situations. One has to work the hand of cards they have been dealt. But that doesn't mean you cannot try to change the deck.
LDH

Weakness doesn't entitle you to anything but the consequences. It stinks and it isn't pretty, but, it is reality.
If the strong carry the weak....who will carry the strong as they weaken in the effort?
Draw the line between the ideal and the actual or your thinking will sicken and become corrupted by your own conceptual pollution.

Amen.
Just because the weak don't like being called weak, doesn't make it so. Just because poor planners don't like being called poor planners, doesn't make it so.
The system is what it is.
There are options. Move to Canada and give up your US Citizenship for socialized medicine. Me, I'm playing the odds right here in the US>
Lisa
Not Heartless, Just a Realist Class
FlyingHighNow

If the strong carry the weak....who will carry the strong as they weaken in the effort?

Wow, I remember an the PO in our congregation using the same statement. It's one reason I saw through the WTBTS. You know, sometimes people do weaken and need a hand. If you help them in the right way, they grow stronger, too. And they just might be around to help that strong person when his house and business get blown away in a hurricane and he finds himself in financial ruin, with nothing. Other strong people can help the strong along as they help the weaker. And weak people who have been helped and are now strong, can help.
" People who need people are the luckiest people in the world. "
You know, I do what I can to change my circumstances to the better. I have goals and plans. And one day I will be better off than I am at present. The thing is, those of you who are presently riding the crest of the wave might not be. You may be down and out. It can happen in one fell swoop. I will gladly offer you a hand at that time. But not until I cock my head a little to the side and say, "So, you find yourself in a weakened position needing my help. Learn from this that anyone can get knocked so far down that they cannot reach up and touch bottom, even you." Be smug. Life will humble you. Life eventually humbles everyone.
Another song comes to mind. Money by Pink Floyd. "Money......get your hand of my stack."
Viv, it is wonderful to see you posting and your contributions to this thread are very welcomed and balanced.
Terry

First of all, quite annoying reading text in that font ... ;Second of all, there is nothing wrong with thinking in ideals, the only way to improve a society is when people have ideals.
But I agree in one thing, thre is no point in arranging your life and making decisions based on ideal situations. One has to work the hand of cards they have been dealt. But that doesn't mean you cannot try to change the deck.

I couldn't find my glasses and had to use a big font!
Your last sentence is essentially the exact messege contained in my original post. Ideals are only imaginary representations of targets. We can only nibble away at ideals.
The true error, in my estimation, is losing sight of the EQUILIBRIUM that exists when we try so hard to push things to one side of the reality balance. The unforeseen consequences of do-gooders is legendary. We mean good and create a whiplash of harm. Why? Becoming blind to real world actuality in the process of our idealism sets the wheels in motion.
The Greeks of old spoke of HUBRIS being counterbalanced by NEMESIS.
Idealists wallow in well-intentioned HUBRIS and the unforeseen consequences are the NEMESIS snapping back the balance.
There is no solution to this problem. That is reality. It can only be attacked on a person-by-person basis of what each of us is willing to do to help others. We force others to "help" at our own peril and hubris.
T.
Vivamus

I couldn't find my glasses and had to use a big font!

Lol
Actually I disagree with the ancient greeks on many points of ther filosophy. Like the idea that man is born in classes and not everyone has a right for being a citizin.... I get the feeling you are speaking in the way of "leave the poor considering they will always be there". Forgive me if I am wrong in that.
I do believe a social structure can be changed. I do not believe it will be easy or ideal when a change occurs, and it is never good to fall in extremes. Socialisim in its purest form is destructive to man's spirit. But capitalism in its purest form will destroy the people as well. And society needs its people. Like it was said in this thread, companies needs healthy people to work, and when a society does not provide for its own people in their basic needs for living, profit and wealth will never last long.
FlyingHighNow

But capitalism in its purest form will destroy the people as well. And society needs its people. Like it was said in this thread, companies needs healthy people to work, and when a society does not provide for its own people in their basic needs for living, profit and wealth will never last long.

I agree. All great empires and world powers have failed eventually for one reason or another. America's greed and calous disregard for the less fortunate will be her undoing. That and her trying to force her free enterprise system on the rest of the world. It is being said that China and India will be the next world powers. Part of this is due to the US sending more and more of her manufacturing jobs there. While America's leaders lavish themselves in luxuries and stay drunk on the idea that they will always ride the crest of the wave, China and India begin to educate their citizens and gladly take on our manufacturing jobs. Speaking of poor planning, look at our leaders and big business who greedily ship our jobs over seas to people who can and will work for pennies on every US dollar.
Mr. Bush and others like him will fiddle while Rome burns. Our health care system is just a symptom of a failed & greedy system.
We want to see the system changed. This doesn't mean we think in ideals. Realistically, our current system stinks and it fails millions of American citizens. To say there is no solution is to be a fatalist. Look at other countries who have universal healthcare. They don't have ideal systems by far, but they serve everyone. That is possible here, that is if you cut down on unbridled greed and Social Darwinism. LDH, it is your assumption that we all believe we shouldn't pay for a universal healthcare system, that it should be free.
I don't think you're a bad person. In your own way your think you're helping. You could do it in a kinder way. I do see that you tend to be judgmental and think you can read people's motives and private business. My sister, who still goes to the kingdom hall, is like that. She thinks all witnesses who leave the org. leave simply because they are not willing to "put forth the effort" to keep up the grueling witness schedule." Which of course, we all know is total bull. But she's sure she is right. She's sure she knows everyone's business and what motivates them. She frequently get's knocked down to size, too.
Life is funny that way. You'll learn one day and you'll mellow. You'll probably be a happier & a more pleasant person, too. I don't usually come out so hard against a poster. You come down hard,so I figure you can take it as well. I've made the mistake of being irritated with people and to assume I knew their business, at times, mostly when I was a JW. I ended up having to eat my words. And that's what it will take for you. We aren't going to change your mind by posting on this thread. Life will teach you. Anytime we get too big for our britches, we've got it coming. It will probably happen to me again someday. I'll forget my past lessons and judge too harshly and life WILL bite me in the a$$. That is one constant you can depend on. Empathy is a good quality to have. Empathy is not the same as stupidity or ignorance of human nature.
LDH

Be smug. Life will humble you. Life eventually humbles everyone.

It doesn't surprise me that no matter what I've said my reasons for my beliefs are, to you it comes across as 'smug,' and heartless, and with a thinly veiled desire that I get what I've got coming because I don't side with certain people who are 'having hard times.'
I don't think you're a bad person. In your own way your think you're helping. You could do it in a kinder way. I do see that you tend to be judgmental and think you can read people's motives and private business.
Or, seen conversely, others could be less defensive. Not only haven't I assumed anyone's motives on this forum, I haven't referred to anyone's private business other than those people whom I know personally (not XJW). I clearly stated I don't try to assume why someone is poor, however clear reasoning will tell you there is a certain amount of the population, I think it's way more than 3%, that need to use the system as a safety net because of repeated poor choices.
I also stated several times I've left the for-profit side of the industry because I don't believe it will be sustainable on a long term basis. Never the less, it is the system that is in place. It does work for most people. I do not agree with socialized medicine for the same reason that others have stated. Every time the Gub'mint gets involved in private enterprise, it is a fiasco.
The current system does not work for all people. It was never meant to. I hope I have provided some links that will be usable to those who are feeling the pinch. I've given some direction for changing legislation for small business owners who are being squeezed. I hope for some who have no long term financial plan, that they are now thinking about what they can do to build protect their assets.
What's so ironic, is people that think the Gub'mint should 'take over' and handle this situation, now they didn't do a very good job at New Orleans, did they? As a matter of fact, it became crystal clear to the NATION that, in the event of a disaster, you'd better plan to be on your own for as long as a week.
Here in California, Maria Shriver is now on TV doing an ad campaign telling people to plan for a disaster by preparing themselves.
http://www.dhs.ca.gov/epo/EPODisaster.html
The Gub'mint can't even get basic necessities to its citizens in need in their hour of crisis, and yet somehow there is a contingent of the population who thinks they can effectively manage a national health care system.
The Gub'mint has told you what to do in case of a disaster. Plan Ahead. That is the same answer that they have given about health insurance. Plan Ahead. (see links to HSA and Dep't of Treasury previously provided).
It's too bad if that message hurts some people's delicate sensitivities. I won't lose any sleep over it.
Lisa
In Good Hands (My Own) Class

Health Care: A Right or a Privilege?

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