Health Care: A Right or a Privilege?

by prophecor 401 Replies latest members politics

SixofNine

Anyone notice what other business for-profit insurance is most like?
It is a business model that works on the exact same principle as Casinos. Insurance companies and Casinos have done the math well before you ever walk in; they aren't going to lose money, they are going to make profit. Although even the mob doesn't pressure you to play slots the way the threat of ill health pressures you to buy insurance.
Frankly, I think gambling is fine, as is profit, but I dont' think it has any place in things as important as life & death & public health.
fairchild

Healthcare should not be a big business and everyone, from the richest to the poorest citzens should have access to it. And no one should have to go broke or lose their life's savings for one hospital visit.

I HAVE lost my life's savings on this and now I'm thinking, heck, I shoulda blown my money away at the casino. There's yet another aspect of this crazy health business.. if you have money in the bank, the hospitals won't even consider giving you a reduction. So my neighbor who has wasted his money on drugs and booze gets a reduction on his hospital bills, because he doesn't have any money in the bank. My other neighbor has about the same income as neighbor number 1 does, but he does not waste his money, he puts it away for a rainy day. Now HE can not get a reduction on his hospital bills, because he has money in the bank. Something is wrong with this picture.
Rabbit

LDH
However, health care and health insurance are two different things. Some here do not feel that it's right for everyone to be entitled to a Yugo, but some can afford a Cadillac. I happen to disagree. I would love to have $50,000 to spend on plastic surgery for a nip and tuck here and there like the bimbos I see on TV. But you know what? I don't have disposable income for that. So, as far as those people are concerned, I'm DRIVING A YUGO just like all of you.

You see, Lisa, you think about how you, "would love to have $50,000 to spend on plastic surgery for a nip and tuck here and there like the bimbos I see on TV." To me, that is how you come across sometimes as a little shallow. Thoughts like 'plastic surgery' never even fly thru people's minds who cannot get insurance. (Except if their faces are burned or disfigured) They are concerned about more concrete things -- like living.
I did not intend to attack you. I intended to say you come across as 'shallow' or maybe just inexperienced or innocently ignorant. Before I had back problems, I never truly understood how absolutely painful every day & every task could be. Just lying in bed or turning over was agony. At the time I had great insurance and I got one of the best doctors available. I had great results and have no back pain whatsoever now. I understand & symphatize with with back pain sufferers, much more than I did before. When I say 'innocently ignorant' that is what I mean. I think if you lost your job and/or insurance and you suffered a 'reversal of fortune' , you may look at things quite differently. Life has a way of doing that.
Here's the thing, I fail to see how I am any more or less 'deserving' of that great surgeon NOW (without ins) as I was THEN (with ins). For that matter -- the same thing should apply to a Wal-Mart checker or someone on welfare -- my health isn't more or less important than theirs! If you help people they CAN be productive and get back to work. Breaking them financially only puts them on the govt. welfare roles, to me that is counter-productive.
It's a shame you chose not to comment on my (and thousands of others) situation with uninsurability -- except that you agreed I was a guaranteed loss for the insurance co. (your obvious concern). I know that, as a matter of fact, I told you that. But, you indignantly compared my having a costly disability (epilepsy) as "pissing in the pool."
You never commented on the Texas Risk Pool (other states have then, too). All co.'s that do business in Texas must participate, they all take a 'risk'.
So what the Ins. Co.'s do first: They deny 'normal' coverage to people like me with epilepsy or hundreds of other costly diseases.
This leaves you 3 choices:
1.) Force you into the 'Risk Pool' where everyone (working & that can afford it) is that have been denied 'normal' coverage. The premium is so high because you're in that same pool with all those other inconsiderate folks "pissing in the pool," you know, those pesky asthmatics, cancer & heart patients, hemodialysis patients (they really "piss" a lot) even those expensive AIDS patients (there's a lot of innocent ones you know) and many, many others. (a really pissy-pissy pool)
2.) Welfare. If you're already a "welfare bum", no worries, you already have free (Yugo) health care coverage. If you stay in the 'Risk Pool' very long, you too, can become a "welfare bum" when you go bankrupt. Or just quit your job (or get fired for taking too much sick time) .
3.) Suffer & die. Geez, who do you think you are anyway ? A citizen of the most advanced, charitable & richest country on earth ?
If the 'risk pool' were truly fair it would not be a lot of different pools. Just one great big one -- with everyone in it. Base the premiums on that. Business as usual, NO ! Obscene profits should be against the law when it comes to health care. Even Utility Co.'s are regulated, so don't have a heart attack (unless you have insurance).
You know as well as I do that Health Ins. companies only want healthy customers. The only time they will accept epilepsy, for instance is in a huge group. You or your spouse has to work for a big company. About 50% of the businesses (like mine) are small businesses, which I can tell you, gives me no clout whatsoever in negotiating prices or coverage. Every year they put new restrictions on what they will cover or how long since you've been treated for a particular thing. They effectively, systematically try to cut out liability for anything that costs them money.
Just business, huh ? A profit is fine. An obscene profit is inhumane. We are not talking about 'elective' procedures, we're talking about basic health care. If there needs to be a total overhaul of the system, fine.
Lisa, I am sure you are not heartless and I know you personally cannot 'fix' the system. I have nothing against you at all, I promise. What you see is an attack, but, not against 'Lisa'. The attack is against your defense of the insurance industry -- an industry that has calculated you and I are much less of a liability -- if we are dead.
As long as we don't take too much time getting there...
Sincerely,
Rabbit
Why Georgia

When I was pregnant with my 2nd son, having a high risk pregnancy I was treated at one of the best hospitals in the world for women.
It was filled with illegal immigrants from Honduras, Ghana, Brazil, etc who didn't have to pay a dime for their care. They even got free parking and I had to pay $10-20 per visit.
My son ended up in the NICU and more than half of the babies there were from illegal immigrants. While I was worrying about my son I was worrying about what would and wouldn't be covered by our less than wonderful HMO.
We pay over $500 per month insurance for our family of 4. It would be more but each year my husband is at his company they pay a little more of our HMO costs.
We also pay a co-pay to see the doctor and for our prescriptions. $100 to go to the ER, $500 if we're admitted.
But again, illegal immigrants get this all free. Most of the people in my neighborhood are illegal immigrants. I get irritated when they are driving expensive H2's, Acura's, and other cars nicer than mine.
Whether you agree or don't agree that all people deserve health care...non-English speaking people put a stress on our English Speaking Health Care system. Interpreters have to be available for these people because they have rights under the law. Also these people come from different cultures where things that are acceptable there are not acceptable here.
There was a little girl from Somalia in the NICU with my son. The parents brought so many members of their family into the hospital to see the little girl. These people didn't bathe like we do. They stunk. The nurses should have done something but didn't because they didn't want to offend them. They also had their whole family of close to 20 people in the hospital with them all day long when people who were sick and tired from having babies were trying to rest and recover.
Sorry about my scattered rant.
There are no real answers as long as people go into any country and need medical treatment. You can't just let someone die on the sidewalk.
Chrystal
Rabbit

Sixy

IOW, start out with quality care and basic dignity for every person in a civilised nation, and let the rich add their own bells and whistles as they see fit.

There ya' go...I'd vote for that.
Insurance & Casinos...you're right it 'mathematical ' odds. The insurance co.'s want to 'stack the deck' and 'better' their odds to maximize profits. Hey, if you go to Vegas and start 'counting cards' or other such things to make your odds better -- they call that cheating don't they ? Throw the bum out !!
That's not fair tho'...the casinos might break your legs, the insurance co.'s would just let 'em rot off.
Rabbit
Thanks for the reminder... 4.) If you are an illegal alien you have the trump card on health care. All along the border here, pregnant women come across the border to have their babies in good American hospitals -- I don't blame them. But, guess what else they get ? Citizenship for their babies ! Which then entitles the Mom, Dad and other kids the legal right to live here !
fairchild

I would love to have $50,000 to spend on plastic surgery for a nip and tuck here and there like the bimbos I see on TV.

There's another way to improve the health care system. people who have plastic surgery (not the ones who have it because their face was damaged in an accident, but the ones who have it because they feel that they must improve their looks) why not make them pay double? Half of it goes to the doctors and to wherever it is supposed to go to, the other half goes into a funds to help people who can't afford medical care.
It kills me. People spend thousands of dollars to improve their looks, while other people die because they can't afford to go see a doctor when they need to.
LDH

Pardon the lengthiness of my oncoming rant.
Why Georgia,
I completely agree with you. As a taxpayer, I prefer other American CITIZENS to benefit from my tax dollars, not illegal immigrants.
Rabbit,
Lisa, you think about how you, "would love to have $50,000 to spend on plastic surgery for a nip and tuck here and there like the bimbos I see on TV." To me, that is how you come across sometimes as a little shallow.
If I had $50K floating around as free money today, don't think for a second I'd use it on plastic surgery.People on this board who have met me can vouch that it's money that doesn't need to be spent.
It was an example. The truth is my husband and I both very gainfully employed and things are peachy keen for us. RIGHT NOW. Even though I've worked in the insurance industry for 18+ years, since I've been married we've always used my husband's insurance. At one point we went on COBRA. My husband's company downsized, while I was unemployed and PREGNANT <thank you> and we paid the premium for the family of $1400 a month for six months. So puh-leese spare me the story. I have had my 'reversals of fortune' and guess what? We have been lucky (and I use that term loosely since we PLAN for emergencies) to ride them out.
The hard to hear truth is, most Americans do not know how to save for emergencies, medical included. I should not have to bear the burden for most people's lack of planning.
There should be a safety net for those who truly fall through the cracks and I'm not mad atcha, but it was what I suspected. You are one of the people who has difficulty in obtaining insurance so it seems I'm defending the evil beast. I'm an easy target for you.
And Yes, California also has a MRMIB just like Texas. And yes, the plans are probably just as crappy.
http://www.mrmib.ca.gov/
You know as well as I do that Health Ins. companies only want healthy customers. The only time they will accept epilepsy, for instance is in a huge group. You or your spouse ;has to work for a big company. About 50% of the businesses (like mine) are small businesses, which I can tell you, gives me no clout whatsoever in negotiating prices or coverage. Every year they put new restrictions on what they will cover or how long since you've been treated for a particular thing. They effectively, systematically try to cut out liability for anything that costs them money.
Rabbit, this is why there are laws on the books such as the one here in California, AB1672 which is considered GUARANTEE ISSUE for a legitimate small employer, with guaranteed rates. That means you CANNOT BE TURNED DOWN.
If you have issue with being a small employer in your state, you need to speak to one of your elected officials about authoring a bill in your state similar to this one.
http://www.healthcoverageguide.org/referenceguide/index.cfm?itemID=21414
There is no law that says an employer *must* offer coverage, but if they do then an insurance carrier by law must treat them within a certain set of parameters including no more than + or - 10% of the standard SERR (Single Employee Risk Rate, also known as Book Rate).
I left "insert insurance company name" this year after 3+ years. One year ago, the company added the HSA plan (previously discussed) to the set of benefit offerings for employees. The company CEO talked about it being the greatest thing since sliced bread. I offered and spent my own time helping employees of this insurance company understand their own damn benefits. (side point, these are the dumb asses that are supposed to be helping YOU understand YOURS). All I heard was how unfair the benefit package was (Company paid 80%!!!!) etc. I tried to tell them the writing was on the wall.
This year, just last month, all 28000 employees had their 10 health plan offerings paired to TWO count 'em TWO offerings. An HSA and an HRA. You want to talk about screaming. I don't want to hear it. They had an entire year to educate themselves and plan for this. Instead, they stuck their heads in the sand. Conveniently, none of them 'make enough money.' They don't understand financial basics and claim they can't even afford to put 3% away on a pre-tax basis, which the company matches.
How much do you want to bet, there are people reading this thread right now who don't have a damn penny put aside for medical emergencies. When something bad happens they will talk about how they 'fall through the cracks' etc etc. why isn't there any thing for them??? The fact is, if you have a decent standard of health and finances now you need to make plans on how to keep BOTH because I can guarantee you at some point will have a 'reversal of fortune.'
Everyone does, it's just a matter of time. Like I said, you can drive a Cadillac or a Yugo and just because you drive one doesn't mean you won't find yourself in the other.
Lisa
Plans Ahead as much as possible Class
hamsterbait

LDH -
Fire services and other financially beneficial services were customarily cared for by each community -
eg London, England before the Great Fire, Chicago before the Great Fire etc.
You worry about all the Health Insurance workers who would be out of a job if the US healthcare system was changed?
To use your own words against you - aren't they being either too lazy or foolish or neglectful if they cant find another job. Say as a waiter who cant afford health insurance??
After all, there are plenty of well paid jobs for them as accountants in the Arms Industry for instance. They could earn far more working out how to kill others than even to save just one CHILD.
HB
LDH

To use your own words against you - aren't they being either too lazy or foolish or neglectful if they cant find another job. Say as a waiter who cant afford health insurance??

YES. EXACTLY.
I gave an example above of how 28000 employees are grumbling over having to pay 20% of their healthcare costs, for a platinum plan. How selfish and ignorant of what the general public has to pay to get the exact same benefits.
If and when the time comes and they lose their jobs, I won't lose any sleep. Like I said, I left the for-profit side of the industry because I do not feel it is sustainable on a long term basis.
IT is called planning ahead. Which most people prefer not to do. When I worked there, I elected platinum level benefits of everything. Long Term Disability, Long Term Care, Life Insurance, ADD, etc. When I left, I converted it ALL to individual. I pay these premiums out of pocket every month because they to some level guarantee a sense of financial security to my family in the event I become disabled or injured and can't work on a long term basis.
Most people who leave the company just let these benefits lapse. Think about it. They will never again get what is basically guaranteed issue benefits at a portable rate. Yet most won't pay the $100 extra per month for it when they leave a major employer.
Lisa
There's that damn word again! Planning! Class
ballistic

Fortunately, a solution is available that should keep everyone happy: insurance.
Healthcare is free for eveyone here, but in a sense we are paying for it through an insurance premium which is levied as tax. The good thing about that is you are still covered when out of work (and not paying tax) and you pay proportionatly more, the more you earn. That will probably tell you something about my politics as well.

Health Care: A Right or a Privilege?

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