Health Care: A Right or a Privilege?

by prophecor 401 Replies latest members politics

  • Terry
    Terry

    If we look at nature itself we find no safety nets of any kind. Survival is a kind of raw word. We've clawed our way to the top of the food chain by killing everything in clever ways and mostly eating it or making lampshades out of it.

    The conqueror nations rose and fell in bloody toil.

    It is nature red in fang and claw all the way.

    But, we humans think we can outsmart nature by devising UNnatural plans for the weak and toothless. It is a fantasy. I'm very sorry to have to say it. It is a fantasy.

    T.

  • Vivamus
    Vivamus

    So Terry, when we are ill, we should just decline all medicine and let our bodies rot away? We have a soul ... and it's our moral right to not withhold to those in need. If I can save a girl from falling down a cliff, should I just let her fall and call it nature?

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Terry

    I'm sure that you are aware of the human psyche component called the ego. Do you believe in this? It seems to me, that the human civilization as a whole or at least parts of it have or are the equivalent of ego as well. The usa and the captalist corps are the ego parts of civilization at this time, imo. It's not bad, per se. It could be, however, that civilization needs to become more civilized. Perhaps socialism is the tool to do this job. Some people see this as a devolution. Time will tell. Or, do you think that we should go in the direction of becoming even more fierce, eliminating the weak, the incompetent, the fucked up, the parasites, the sensitive artists, the renegades, those whose values are nonmonetary/nonpower/noncompetition centered?

    S

  • sammielee24
    sammielee24
    But, we humans think we can outsmart nature by devising UNnatural plans for the weak and toothless

    Interesting if we look at it this way - humans by manipulation/greed/consumption etc have polluted the air/water and ground and this in effect has taken a toll on health. In effect we have weakened some people simply by growth and technology. If we think a plan to ensure that effective/appropriate/standard health care is unnatural than I would wonder at the compassion or humanity of anyone that believes it would be okay then to allow an asthmatic child, lungs heaving and gasping for air, dying on the sidewalk as they walk past. I guess if we take that old survival law of only the strong surviving, then every preemie on ventilators should be allowed to die - every mentally and physically challenged baby should be starved to death, every cancer patient should be given no medicine and in fact there should be no hospitals because in reality, if you can't fix it yourself then you ain't strong enough to survive. This would all be wonderful but we seem to have confused weak with wealth.sw

  • LDH
    LDH

    Fairchild,

    Thank you for taking the time to explain your situation to me in detail. Part of my response will be public, and if you'll check your PM in a few minutes, you'll see that another part of my response will be private.

    One of my friends has a good income, and so does her husband, but they are always short on cash. However, they have a fourwheeler, a snowmobile, a boat, a harley, three cars, including a brand new BMW, two computers, a fax, three TVs, VCR, DVD, she buys new carpets for her bathroom twice a year, she doesn't want to buy clothes second hand, because "somebody else has worn them", she needs a new couch every other year, you name it.. I KNOW, there are a LOT of people who live like that. In her opinion, all the things she has are things she needs. She always tells me that she would never buy anything she didn't need. I let her have her opinion, although I very strongly disagree. However, you can't tell such people that they are overspending, because they would be really offended.

    I hope that these people also have a safety net of 9-12 months with this type of extravagant lifestyle. If they don't, and when the fall on hard times, I would have ZERO sympathy for them. Let them eat cake.

    But you MUST understand that not everyone is just like that. Every situation is different and to say that "the poor" need to plan better is rather ridiculous. You have NO idea. Do you know why the reactions of FHN and myself and some others are sharp? Because we know better.

    Of course I have an idea. Or did you miss all the parts where I said I was a single working mother for 7 years prior to getting married? I believe that a part of the reason your reactions are so sharp is because you may be indignant at believing you have any control over your situation.

    Chances are that they are perfectly capable of planning.

    OK, with one google search for 'americans adequate savings' I find a link of pure JW-style cognitive dissonance. http://www.urban.org/publications/1000252.html

    Do People Think That They Are Saving Enough?

    Surveys that ask people about their retirement preparedness yield mixed results. For example, one recent survey found that nearly two-thirds of working Americans feel confident that they will live comfortably in retirement and almost three-quarters have started saving for retirement. However, the same survey also found that over half of workers feel they are behind schedule for planning and saving for retirement. Workers who have done a retirement needs calculation are more likely to be confident that they will live comfortably in retirement and are less likely to feel that they are behind schedule for planning and saving for retirement. However, more than one-half of workers have yet to determine how much retirement savings they will need.

    Poor financial planning doesn't just happen to XJWs. It happens to most human beings, period.

    When I look around my place, I can tell you for an absolute fact that the only items (other than food, catfood, cat litter and bathroom items such as soap and shampoo, and *some* of my books, underwears and socks, are the ONLY things I have ever bought new. Everything else, from the clothes in my dresser to the spoons in my kitchen are second hand items. I don't have a car, a microwave, dishwasher, DVD, CD, dryer, hairdryer, etc... I live on bare necessities. I bought my workboots second hand 5 years ago and they are now held together with duct tape because the soles are falling apart. Should you put all my possessions on a pile and sell them, they wouldn't be worth more than a few hundred dollars, (if that much) although my computer (which was second hand and a gift from someone) might push the total up to about a thousand dollars. After my rent, electricity, phone and internet bill (which is the cheapest I could get at $10 a month) are paid, I have $90 left. Although I live in a very cold climate where 30 below is not an exception, I only use my heat briefly in the morning to take a shower. At this moment, I am sitting on the computer, wearing gloves and a jacket which I bought for a dollar two winters ago. The $90 which is left after paying my bills is for groceries and to pay off thousands of dollars in hospital bills. If you know how to make better planning with those 90 dollars, please do tell.

    Why not get a better job, huh? I work a seasonal job, which provides lots of hours during July and August, but comes winter, those hours are reduced to almost nothing. Between September and the end of June, I live off the money I made in July and August. On top of that I am having heart problems and I'm not even supposed to do the kind of work I am doing. An extra job for the wintermonths perhaps? Close to impossible without a vehicle. Also, the area where I live is practically deserted in wintertime, there simply are no jobs. And how does one buy a car if there are only $90 a month to live on? See what I mean? It is a vicious circle. At this point, it isn't about planning, it is about surviving. I am not ashamed to admit that I am picking my neighbor's empty beer cans up from the yard, they throw them all over the place, and it saves me at least $5 a month on my grocery bill.

    If I heard a stranger on the street tell me this, I would most likely believe that person is ...addicted to drama.

    I don't believe that you waste the limited resources you have. I do believe you are caught in a vicious cycle that many human beings find themself in. What struck me, was that while reading your situation, it appears to be hopeless. This is the cycle that's called 'poverty.' I'm not unfamiliar with poverty.

    Most of the time, I beleive that the cycle of poverty can be escaped. It does not come without sacrifice and dare I say, baggage.

    I guess for me it comes down to, I don't believe I can save the world anymore. My family contributes lots of money to various charities. But when it comes down to it, my eyes are open to the way the world really works as opposed to some type of utopia I think we can all escape to. Also, being raised a JW, I honestly thought I would be rescued from any poor financial planning by the Paradise they constantly blather about.

    It's not comfortable for me either, ya know! I hate taking money out of my paycheck for retirement and savings that I think "I could be using that now!" It's not true, I really don't need it now. Neither do most folks. When you can plan, you should plan. You don't have to live in perpetual financial drama. My advice is to take a hard look at your situation and determine if you think you'll be rescued by someone (god or government) or something (paradise).

    Here is a link to a book that maybe some of you will buy. It's called "Rich Dad, Poor Dad: What the Rich Teach Their Kids About Money--That the Poor and Middle Class Do Not! "

    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0446677450/qid=1136066810/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/002-5858846-0830442?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

    I stopped believing that I could rescue everyone when I left the make believe world of the JWs.

    Lisa

    Pragmatic Class

  • Terry
    Terry
    I stopped believing that I could rescue everyone when I left the make believe world of the JWs.

    Lisa

    Pragmatic Class

    We are awash in the rather horrifying tidal wave of ALTRUISM. The idea that you must sacrifice yourself to others has wrought more devastation in everyday life than people are willing to acknowledge.

    We are taught, first of all, that it is our DUTY to fend for others because they have NEED.

    Like any pyramid scheme (which this certainly is) the payoff has to come later for your self when you have need. You must rely on the willingness of others to sacrifice for you.

    War is an example of this logic.

    You forefathers died so that you may live in freedom. Now you must die so that your children may live in freedom. Your children must die so that their kids can live in freedom. There is a lot of death there in that equation! It is your duty to die. Where is your duty to live? Is life about dying for OTHERS to live? Why are those OTHERS the beneficiaries of the death of you? Are they better than you?

    The logic breaks down everywhere there is close inspection.

    In an ALTRUISTIC society we gain reputation and value in the eyes of others how? By giving. The more of your time, effort, property, etc. you expend on behalf of the "other" the greater your value. (To those others with their hands out.)

    If you do something that improves your own condition you are viewed as cheating the poor and the helpless. You are, (gasp!) SELFISH!

    Step back and look at that.

    You improve your own life and you are SELFISH. But, if you improve the other person's life you are GOOD.

    What is wrong with this picture.

    It is fundamentally skewed to make the needy, the non-earners, the non-productive person the object of benevolence and the backwash of scorn goes to those who improve their own status by virtue of their personal resourcefulness and effort.

    If we have the rights to life, liberty and the PURSUIT of happiness, do we not have to DO SOMETHING to create those conditions by our own efforts or should we hold out our hand like a streetcorner beggar and expect them to fall in our hand?

    If we are all CREATED EQUAL, is it not logical that this cannot mean we are equal in talent, health, ability and soundness, but rather, equal in our OPPORTUNITY to improve our condition by our own efforts.

    An opportunity is not a guarantee! A plot of ground is not a garden; it is the opportunity for a garden.

    Any working single mother knows that you constantly sacrifice for your own children. But, to do so beyond a certain point of equilibrium is disastrous. When you lose your strength, energy, happiness and health serving even your own children you are ALL at risk of burn-out and a train wreck.

    The family has to learn how each person does a job to contribute to self-support WHICH THEN redounds to the benefit of the group. The child must learn to dress themselves, bathe, brush their teeth, prepare and eat a meal and clean up afterward, do homework, earn, improve, etc. Otherwise, the burden is always on the parent who loses themselves in the effort.

    We either learn to be self-sufficient or we learn to be dependant on the sacrifice of others. When we cause others to sacrifice for us because we failed to do for ourselves we are stealing a part of their life from them. The fact that some are willing to smile and give does not mean they are not suffering the consequence of the imbalance.

    We need to teach and learn self-sufficiency from birth. Parents who confuse DOING FOR their children with teaching them self-reliance are harming them immeasurably.

    We are swimming in a growing tide of grownup children who think the world OWES THEM whatever they want and need simply because they WANT.

    We've spawned a society of beggars. Altruism is the foundational belief.

    Altruism is the tool of religion. We are made servants by religion. We think we serve God; but, we serve those who USE US for their own benefit.

    Just as the WATCHTOWER used us for their benefit by teaching us to constantly serve, give, serve, give---until we collapse in an empty shell of a life that is advertised as so beautiful-----we find these landmines everywhere in our society and the world at large.

    How will we escape the trap of self-sacrifice unless we recognize how insidious it is?

    Terry

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Terry

    I see both sides of this issue, and it's one of the things about which i puzzle. What is the best approach for the best possible for the most people for the long term??

    S

  • Terry
    Terry
    I see both sides of this issue, and it's one of the things about which i puzzle. What is the best approach for the best possible for the most people for the long term??

    S

    Your foundation for that query ASSUMES the great number of people are more worthy than your self AUTOMATICALLY.

    T

  • Pole
    Pole

    Terry,

    I can't begin to agree with this.

    We don't have Capitalism right now; we have a "mixed economy".

    Pure Capitalism means you have the right to ownership of what you earn and that ownership consists of YOU controlling it yourself without the government telling you how.

    You don't consider ownership is important?

    Pure Capitalism allows people of talent and ability to earn what they deserve through the effort the expend. No paternalism, no favoritism, no nepotism, no government interference, no Senate Lobbyists!

    What you make, what you earn, what you own is YOURS to do with as you consider best.

    Whay would you think this is bad?



    Sorry, man, but what have you been smoking? ;-) I've seen so many die-hard marxists claiming that the only problem with "true communism" is that it has yet to be implemented, because people aren't mature enough yet to be benefitted by communism.
    The number 1 reason why you have a "mixed-economy" (and there are many degrees of mixing to be observed in economies around the world) is because only the mixed models work for real people. The moment you start blaming peolpe for not living up to the ideals of one economic social or political system or another, you inadvertently admit that the system in question is a failure. Face it, or you'll never stop blaming "the people". In a democratic society you just have to come up with political or economic solutions which most people are ready to be convinced to accept.
    Whether we like it or not, there will always be cynical bastards who will make use of "pure capitalism" or "pure communism" to their advantage and at the expense of the respectable followers of the true form of the true ideology. (sorry, for the irony, but there's no point in prescribing "true" ideologies for real people). Communist party notables and fat capitalist cats are not so different as we might sometimes think.

    End of reply to Terry's post

    ---

    As for the main topic of this thread: As long as the taxes aren't 'punitive' I am for a common and obligatory health system similar to most European systems. And don't tell it means you are left with "only" 1000 or 2000 euros per month and you have to make a living after you pay your insurance. I live in Eastern Europe. It's amazing to see people losing a real perspective on the material side of life.

    Pole

  • prophecor
    prophecor

    * Pole Recieves a Standing Ovation *

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