12:35 I'm watching Fox news. They are at the scene, so far no word. Says "Execution Process is Underway". One protestor hit a Fox camera man over the head a few minutes ago. Found out that it is easy to get nominated for a Nobel peace prize..ok he is dead 12:37..
Tookie is running out of time
For those for the death penalty, and I am not sure either way, think about one of your children or grandchildren being executed.
I think about it. but I also think what if my kid or grandchild was murdered. anyone messes with my daughter, they'd have a hard time keeping me off them.
I used to support the death penalty hands down. I have a very, very troubled and mentally ill son that has been mixed up with some bad people.Kids he grew up with that ended up on the very dark side. There are lots of extenuating circumstances to my son's life. I have thought about my son facing the death penalty. That changed my mind. Except in cases like John Wayne Gacey or Ted Bundy.
Its very sad. I have mixed feelings.
He started something that grew to be much bigger than himself when he started his gang and the gang warfare that ensued. However much he did afterwards he still caused an awful lot of evil carried on by other people.
On the other hand he also did a huge amount to educate young people and stop them joining gangs etc. He was undoubtedly more use alive than dead.
Having worked in prison and meeting lots of nice people who had changed I ended up thinking 'well, you might have changed, but you did a HELL of a lot of damage along the way before you changed'. Its a pain in the ass for society to have to wait for these violent young men to go through on average 10 years of criminal career, and then settle down, and then have to be all pleased that they have sorted themselves out.
Its not that I dont believe in forgiveness, its just that a lot of the time the 10 years of damage they have caused is irreversable. And no amount of 'sorry' and 'im reformed now' can change the impact on innocent peoples lives.
I met the most lovely gentle charming armed robber who was reformed. I could have easily fallen in love with him. BUT the person he pulled a gun on in the garage he robbed was irreversably damaged by the incident (even though John assured me he had no intention of shooting - the victim didnt know that did he?). Poor victim was unable to work again, because he was left in such panic and fear. No income - reduced standard of living - affecting wife and childrens standard of living. John went on to improve his standard of living because he got an education in prison and imporved his prospects. Just doesnt seem fair does it?
That is a good question. Why where three African-American jurors removed from the jury? Another question that has risen in me is: What if Tookie was a white man? From the bottom of the line I am not against the death penalty but I think, the American states handles death penalty cases to undiscriminated. In the case of Tookie they should have had released him from the death row. As far I can trace back information about Tookie, on that ground I think he would have benefit the state and human being more being alive than dead. Because he started anti-gang work That would be a contribution to fight violence among young kids who grow up in violence environments. One guy can prevent many guys from developing a criminal lifestyle. Think about that: As “ FlyingHighNow” already said: " During Stan's trial, this prosecutor made racially-coded remarks” , and, “comparing Stan during the trial to a Bengal tiger in the zoo and stating that a black community - South Central Los Angeles - was equivalent to the natural "habitat" of a Bengal Tiger.” So, what was the decision finally based on? Tookie became a victim of a racial based judgement and that is far beyond the actual case. The prosecutor was running out of arguments so he saw no alternative to resort to excuses by applying racially-coded remarks. By fighting violence the USA should try to benefit from anti-violence activities also from persons in death row, who has changed their attitude by developing a society orientated violence-reducing-conviction. If not, than this death penalty is just a mutation down to a cheap solution of revenge and that benefits no one.
if someone starts an illegal gang-war, he rides the lightning.
if someone starts an illegal international war, he's elected for a second term and sweeps his a$$ with 100$ bills.
I don't know much about this case but generally any black person convicted of murder especially in the 70s even 80s by a white dury could just be a state sanctioned excuse for lynching an uppity n*gger(making a point not being rude). Just listening to some of the reaction to this person on this thread, confirms that white racist attitute that still probably prevails in the United States of Arians.
I'm not against executing black thug murderers but convictions are not safe in a predominantly white ruled society. Schwazenegger doesn't have the mental capacity to decide judiciously on whether someone should live or die.
I really really really wasn't going to get involved in this discussion.
I know what I think.
I know what a lot of American's think.
And I know perfectly well it is cultural differences that make people who I would otherwise think of as good members of society approve of something I find utterly vile.
This is not about 'good' pinko-commie liberal faggot Europeans who are opposed to the death penalty and 'bad' rabid right-wing American Republican Christians with 'Save the Unborn' AND 'Fry the Murderer' placards in the trunk of their car.
This is about people being a reflection of the society they grew up in. But when someone says;
I also wish that the victims families could actually kill him themselves, if they so chose. He shot his victims, so I have no problem with taking a shot gun to him until he dies.
... I really think the line between justice and revenge has been crossed, let alone that between sanity and insanity. That form of tribal insanity is one of the reasons that Iraq has so many problems, yet you want to extend it to the USA?????
Now, I feel killing people is wrong because killing people is wrong, and when we start making up instances (outside of justifiable self-defence) when killing people is right, we undermine the principle that killing people is wrong.
Beyond this the facts are death penalty is intrinsically unjust because innocent people die.
If you are willing to have yourself or your friends or family killed because of judicial indifference, incompetence or unimpartiality (all of these have resulted in unsound executions), then go ahead, support the death penalty. That is as simple as it gets.
If you are an American and you support the death penalty, whatever praiseworthy and laudable reasons you have for supporting the death penalty, you are supporting a system that in practice is extremely racist. A black defendant is far more likely to be given the death penalty for the same class and severity of crime than a white person. You are also supporting an econmically unjust law, as one thing rich people can normally succesfully avoid is being executed.
So, even IF you are 'right', and the death penalty is a 'good' thing, you are STILL supporting a penalty that is unfair and racist in its application, even IF you can justify everything else about it.
I can understand cultural differences making the sanctity of life as a founding principle less important in the USA than it is in Europe. But I cannot understand complacency in face of a legal penalty that is demonstrably flawed.
Tookie Williams is dead. Lethal injection.
Lots of good points on both sides.
Abaddon, to good to hear from you.