by snare&racket 94 Replies latest jw friends
Cofty- I also admire what Jesus said in Matt chapter 23. It helps to read it in the meeting when my Judicial comittee members are commenting or taking meeting parts.
I imagine myself standing at the back and just reading it out loud to them in a colourful tone
Tec
....you keep just repeating that you think the gospels and stories of Jesus are 'the truth' and so it is easy to answer my questions because you answer them based on what Jesus said or promoted.
You have jumped all the questions and missed the whole point of thread!!!
'if we say there is a god.....' Is my attempt at taking a step towards theists and having an open and honest conversation with people like you, beyond a question none of us can answer...is there a god? So if i take a step in your shoes and say there is.... then my questions are 100% legitimate.
But you have stepped in and with no sense of irony you want us all to just accept a tonne of more assumptions.... there is a god AND ..he is the hebrew god AND had a son jesus who came to earth AND what was written in the new testament about him is true AND he and those words equate to "truth" and by that I have chosen my religion and god and belief system...
go back a few steps.... Beyond 'if there is a god' how can you just assume the rest of those desicions you have made. They are HUGE steps on your belief system. How did you make them? How can you even start to talk about the bible and jesus with no appreciation for people asking politely how you got from 'god exists' to 'jesus is the truth' in one jump?
this is the whole point of the thread.... You answered my questions on religion with religious answers !!!!....and your justification was that your religious answers are 'the truth' and your god jesus is 'the truth' . What kind of evidence, reasoning or logic is that?
I wasn't expecting such an irrational answer tec..... on what basis do you say they are true????? A muslim could quite the quaran and call it truth!
Snare x
P.s. Please don't copy and paste every sentence broken down.. Simply answer how you can go from 'there is a god' to ...'i believe in jesus and he is the truth'
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/225922/1/Evidence-for-God#.UlEWeBw1_WU
I have come to understand a few more things since that thread... (like how I always believed in God, knew Him to be there)... but the above is a thread I did a bit over a year ago that explains a bit more detail of how one can get from there is a god... to THE God is the Father of Christ, and my faith is in him in particular. You might even have seen it back then. But by all means, ask questions if you have them. I might be able to clarify some things that I might not have understood then.
Please also understand that it is not the gospels and stories that I think are 'truth'... but Christ Himself. So that the things He taught are also truth.
Anyway, it is late, i am just home from work, but wanted to post that link for you. I will try to be around some tomorrow before work if you have anything that you want to discuss/challenge/question/understand.
Peace to you,
tammy
Please also understand that it is not the gospels and stories that I think are 'truth'... but Christ Himself. So that the things He taught are also truth.
Yeah, sometimes the Bible can be a huge obstacle to believing in Christianity. But TEC has amazingly found a way to use the Bible to support her beliefs and dismiss the Bible wherever it clashes with them.
It would be easier to understand a "Bible-free" or "Bible-less" Christian, believer in the Mystical following of Christ, than it would be to understand a "Less-Bible" or "Some-of-the-Bible-is-true" Christian like Tammy.
TEC, you have learned from the best of them- just ignore whatever realities don't fit your fantasy. If the God of the Gaps is getting smaller and smaller, just create new gaps.
You say you see truth in the teachings of jesus because they work in your life,,, so based on what you wrote in that thread Tec, you get your very own special questions....
1) With great respect, how many religious texts have you attempted to live by or have read fully?
2) IMPORTANT QUESTION: What are the specific teachings of jesus, that are **unique to jesus** do you feel are true? (judged by the effect of applying them)
3) Do you think any of the valuble teachings of jesus are found elsewhere in history?
4) Are there any teachings of jesus you reject?
5) if someone wrote a religious text and as they all do , gave instructions in how to live, what would a human inspired religious text look like?
-Would it all be false and all be non valuble in giving instruction on how to live? Would any of it work in one's life making it 'truth' by your standard? Would it all be truth? Would it contain core truths as you would expect from a human and some untruths represented by what the average human knew at the time of writing?
6) if you lived by the ethos of ghandi, buddah, mohammed or krishna would you not also find these 'truths' and some non truths? How? Why?
7) Do you think your personal compass for truth is sufficient? In that you are judging a human text and asking whether its words are beneficial to a human applying them in their life.... Of course a human, even 2000 years ago will say SOME things that will be beneficial for humans...
8) I aporeciate that this may be enough fo your belief, but can you see how for someone making desicions about god and religion based on evidence this would not suffice? If not why not?
9) Do you think it is legitimate to say because some teachings ascribed to jesus are true (such as do unto others etc...) that therefore jesus is the truth and his teachings are the truth?
I am interested in your thoughts tec,
He talked of forgivness and then of eternal destruction, he talked of love and of slavery, he talked of a light load and to the contrary picking up your cross/stake, giving up your belongings, family and life for him.. There are so many contradictions... He refers to adam and eve, the flood, the prophets, all with reprehensible acts of god attached, whether it being god drowning his children because they dissapointed him... Remember they were impregnanted by randy demons, hardly the humans fault..... Or jesus talking about david, the guy who murdered and sexed up his neighbours, with god deciding to kill the unborn child as punishment...how can this be ok with you tec?
I find jesus's words disapointing and discouraging and anti humanist... I really do, i find some of his words helpful such as the golden rule, however i long ago realised it was not unique to him at all... It is almost verbatim taken from older 'pagan' religious texts...
My point is, truth is inarguably truth by definition, how can we both have such opposing views on the teachings ascribed to jesus and yet one of us call them and use them as "the truth" ..... They would be universally true with no error and no debate if that was the case and they are not.
Thank you tec, I am sincerely interested in your answers...
Some one on this treed said qoute:" For those who do not believe in God, know that you are in disadvantage for there is No MORE CHANCE, there will not be no MORE Jesus. It is closed
It is possible to look on Jesus from a very different angle. Suppose that god se the earth as it is, wicked, dangerous, harmful, and ful of sin. He/she decides to send his son to save humanity. His son arrives and preach for all human beeings, hes got 12 diciples, and after 3 years of preeching, almost all people spit on him, punish him, destroy him and then hang him on a stake?
Now suddenly god can forgive all humans becouse his son sacrificed his body and his life, for humans sake. Does god likes us now much more then before. ?
Where is the logic? If I were god I should go mad and imideately destroy all those people involved in my sons death. For me the very the very basic of Christendom is based on a very unlogical thougt: God loved mankind so much that he sacrifised his own son, so that mankind should survive.
Isn´t that the very basic of Christendom?
Bugbear
Yeah, sometimes the Bible can be a huge obstacle to believing in Christianity.
It can be, yes... when you are looking at it as an image... over Christ, the Truth. Because the bible is not perfect, and is not THE truth. It cannot be, because that is Christ.
Many jews could not hear Christ over the scriptures and their traditions and their interpretations of those scriptures. So yes, the bible can be an obstacle... depends on what place you assign it.
But TEC has amazingly found a way to use the Bible to support her beliefs and dismiss the Bible wherever it clashes with them.
You keep saying this. Not just you, but others as well. I used to wonder how you could not SEE what I have said, many times over... that it is not what supports my beliefs; it is what is in union with the Truth, with Christ. I am beginning to think that you simply cannot see. Because you will not look at Him, yourself.
It would be easier to understand a "Bible-free" or "Bible-less" Christian, believer in the Mystical following of Christ, than it would be to understand a "Less-Bible" or "Some-of-the-Bible-is-true" Christian like Tammy.
Well, I do follow Christ... in the Spirit. Some of the bible backs what He says, and some of it is misunderstood, and some of it is wrong. So it is not a matter of following the 'goodies' from the bible. It is a matter of following Christ, what he speaks or confirms... and then showing the backing from what is written (which is ALWAYS demanded from people if something is shared that they think is against what is written, believers or non-beleivers)
TEC, you have learned from the best of them- just ignore whatever realities don't fit your fantasy. If the God of the Gaps is getting smaller and smaller, just create new gaps.
There is no 'god of the gaps' that has given me my faith.
Peace,
tammy
Hi tec, I appreciate your latest answer and there is matters that we agree on as well as disagree on. I have some questions for you. You mention following the Christ, do you view the Christ as confined to the person of Jesus? Or is the Christ something greater than the person of Jesus which Jesus came to be united with? Did Jesus by raising his consciousness come to be the personification of the Christ on earth at that time?
If Jesus came to be one with the Christ consciousness this would make it easier to understand Jesus' many statements such as "I am the way, the resurrection, and the life." "I am the light of the world" "I am come that all might have life and that they might have it more abundantly"
I believe that Jesus exemplified the Christ consciousness when he was on earth. Others such as the Buddha and Krishna and others had exemplified Christ consciousness earlier. I believe these individuals were the same as us and therefore every human alive today has the ability to exemplify the Christ consciousness. This of course is not easy and requires possibly many reincarnations to accomplish.
I respect the bible for it's teachings but as you mentioned one has to use discernment in accepting it's veracity exactly the same with any other book or teacher. Teachings such as Christianity is the only way to God or the ransom sacrifice as understood by mainstream christianity simply can not be made to make sense.
Rose Mary is back.
