If there is a god..

by snare&racket 94 Replies latest jw friends

  • tec
    tec

    You say you see truth in the teachings of jesus because they work in your life,,, so based on what you wrote in that thread Tec, you get your very own special questions....

    I hear the Truth in Him regardless, but I have seen the truth of his teachings also. Some I am still coming to learn (see for myself) that they are true.

    1) With great respect, how many religious texts have you attempted to live by or have read fully?

    I don't attempt to live by any religious texts. But there is truth in all of them, as far as I can tell. Why would there not be? I have learned about all five major world religions... and I have read the bible (and so that makes two world religions) and the Quran.

    2) IMPORTANT QUESTION: What are the specific teachings of jesus, that are **unique to jesus** do you feel are true? (judged by the effect of applying them)

    Unique to Him?

    Well, Him being alive and speaking (that I know is true)... is unique. But I don't know every religion or claim ever made, and there could be other claims like that. I don't think there are though. I do know that His claim is true though. So then I can put faith in what He says about everything.

    Also, that one knows and sees God, if one knows and sees Him... as He is the image of God, the Word of God, and the Truth of God. I am not sure who else might make that claim.

    As for moral teachings? Those are not all unique to Him (though He came before all others, being the first to come from God). Those who have love, will have an understanding of truth, as Truth comes from Love. So love... for friend and enemy; forgiveness; showing mercy over judgment.

    I am sure that one of the teachings that you, and others, dislike... and think is untrue is in regard to loving Him more than mother, father, brother, sister, self (similar meaning as hating mother, father, brother, sister, and you own life... that which belongs to THIS world)

    But this is true also. To serve Him, to serve the Kingdom, to serve all who belong to Him and for whom the Kingdom was created... one must put Him FIRST. Because if you love another more than Him (including your own life), then when that other calls for you to do something else (something that is not true), then you will do it instead. Do not think that this applies only to a fleshly mother, brother, father, etc... because how many people consider their religion a 'mother'. Even if they do not, religion is referred to as a mother who has daughters in Revelation and elsewhere.

    Say you love the wts more than Him... you will do as the wts teaches first, and you will not listen to Him. Those who join the wts are listening to them... and not to Him.

    Just as one example. The same can be said for fleshly mothers, fathers, etc... how many join the wts or fail to leave the wts because of their love for their families, over Him. That does not mean that He does not love them, or that He is not calling them out... but how can they serve Him and His kingdom if they are still serving that 'harlot' and her kingdom?

    3) Do you think any of the valuble teachings of jesus are found elsewhere in history?

    I have said yes, above.

    4) Are there any teachings of jesus you reject?

    No, not one. As Peter said when Christ finished teaching a truth that many found particularly hard to hear... "You have the words of Life."

    And one can always ask for something hard to hear... to be explained.

    5) if someone wrote a religious text and as they all do , gave instructions in how to live, what would a human inspired religious text look like?

    Depends on the human, doesn't it? And who or what they are listening to. (like love, for instance)

    -Would it all be false and all be non valuble in giving instruction on how to live? Would any of it work in one's life making it 'truth' by your standard? Would it all be truth? Would it contain core truths as you would expect from a human and some untruths represented by what the average human knew at the time of writing?

    If it was completely from man and no other inspiration, it would probably be something of both... but again that might depend. It is hard to answer absolute in a hypothetical. (we are talking about moral teachings alone, right?) If that man had the law (of love) upon his heart, then that religious text about morals should reflect this and love.

    6) if you lived by the ethos of ghandi, buddah, mohammed or krishna would you not also find these 'truths' and some non truths? How? Why?

    I would find some. Same reason as I have explained... truth comes from love.

    7) Do you think your personal compass for truth is sufficient? In that you are judging a human text and asking whether its words are beneficial to a human applying them in their life.... Of course a human, even 2000 years ago will say SOME things that will be beneficial for humans...

    My personal compass for truth is not always correct.

    Christ, however, always has been... and has never led me incorrect. I get into trouble (even though He still helps me through it) when I do not listen to Him. Then I take the 'hard way'.

    8) I aporeciate that this may be enough fo your belief, but can you see how for someone making desicions about god and religion based on evidence this would not suffice? If not why not?

    I do not think you are you looking for my acceptance and understanding that you not have enough evidence to believe. But rather, you are actually asking this question of Him. Because my Lord has asked me why it would matter to you or to anyone what I accept or not.

    9) Do you think it is legitimate to say because some teachings ascribed to jesus are true (such as do unto others etc...) that therefore jesus is the truth and his teachings are the truth?

    No, of course not. But I have not said this.

    I saw and heard Truth in Him, in his teachings, and so I followed Him. Because I loved Him. I have since come to know Him (and so, know God)... and know/see that ALL that He has ever said and still does say, is truth.

    I am interested in your thoughts tec,

    I hope that this helps expand upon the things I shared earlier, Snare.

    He talked of forgivness and then of eternal destruction, he talked of love and of slavery, he talked of a light load and to the contrary picking up your cross/stake, giving up your belongings, family and life for him.. There are so many contradictions... He refers to adam and eve, the flood, the prophets, all with reprehensible acts of god attached, whether it being god drowning his children because they dissapointed him... Remember they were impregnanted by randy demons, hardly the humans fault..... Or jesus talking about david, the guy who murdered and sexed up his neighbours, with god deciding to kill the unborn child as punishment...how can this be ok with you tec?

    I do not see the contradictions that you see; because I am looking at Him... to show me truth; rather than the interpretations and teachings of men, religion, tradition, etc.

    Not everything written is true. Or understood correctly.

    If man would look at Christ, man would understand and know God. God does not kill. Though many killings are attributed to Him by people (or scribes) who did not look at or fully understand the Truth. But we DO have the Truth now, and so we CAN look at Him and see God.

    As for those who are granted entrance into the Kingdom... not everyone knows Christ (so not everyone believes in Him)... but some are known BY Him.

    While faith in Him is required to be His brother, annointed with holy spirit, to serve Him and those who belong to Him now, and rule as kings and priests with Him in His Kingdom... (the 144000 of Israel and the Great Crowd from all nations/tribes/etc... these two have become on in Christ)... there are also the sheep from the parable of the sheep and goats shows that there are also those who are subjects in His Kingdom, invited into the Kingdom that was created for them since the beginning. These are those who do good to even the least of His brothers.

    These sheep did not know Him (but He knew them by what they did and spoke); those who have the law (of love) upon their hearts and do naturally, the things required by that law. Show mercy? Mercy will be shown to you. Forgive? Be forgiven. Because what you do for the least of these... you have done for Him.

    I find jesus's words disapointing and discouraging and anti humanist... I really do, i find some of his words helpful such as the golden rule, however i long ago realised it was not unique to him at all... It is almost verbatim taken from older 'pagan' religious texts...

    Perhaps if you would submit what you find disapointing, discouraging and anti-humanist? We could discuss those?

    My point is, truth is inarguably truth by definition, how can we both have such opposing views on the teachings ascribed to jesus and yet one of us call them and use them as "the truth" ..... They would be universally true with no error and no debate if that was the case and they are not.

    The answer is in your question, I think... different views of the truth. Different understandings of what Christ taught... because of what we have been taught by others (men, religion, tradition, scholars, etc), or even taught ourselves... according to what we WANT to be true, or think SHOULD be true. There are a lot of falsehoods out there about God.

    Thank you tec, I am sincerely interested in your answers...

    Thank you also, Snare, for your sincerity... you DO care, and that comes out in your 'voice'.

    Peace and love to you, and to your loved ones,

    tammy

  • tec
    tec

    Willa, perhaps my response above shows more clearly... if not, I will respond more perhaps tomorrow.

    I do not share this 'christ consciousness' understanding that you speak about, if I am understanding you correctly.

    Peace to you,

    tammy

  • snare&racket
    snare&racket

    Thank you for your time Tec,

    Been as only you have experienced your experiences and your choice of bible inteprtation is personal and your choice of which bible verses are true is based on personal standards....... is it fair to say you can't in any way communicate in any meaningful way with other humans about it? As someone well versed in the bible, in different beliefs, in science and physics and the etherial, I still have no anchors or groundings to underand what you describe. Also over time it seems your perspective has gathered pace on the wind in its shifting from place to place. Now you have sentences that dont even make sense to me in any way at all. Part of me thinks this pleases you, a unique and individual experience of your own and I would never mock that. But, you cant preach or teach or converse with others about it, you cant reason or question or research, in fact your comments here are nonsensical to anyone not .....you..... it is all personal to... you.

    So, as much as I love your company :P x why do you join conversations like this? In honesty tec, you can offer nothing more but "I am right because I personally know I am right." I appreciate that it means much to you, but that sentiment is dangrous I am sure you agree, because we could all by that logic use that logic to remain wrong. It may not matter to you that someone else be wrong, but for some annoying reason I am here right now, because it maters to me..... A LOT. Once upon a time, that young boy with naeievety was stood looking at the world saying "i know I am right" and it took 15 years, a hell of a lot of pain and honesty and loss to recognise how wrong I was.

    Nobody can converse or reason with that statement tec...so here is the big question, why do you attempt to use logic, reasoning, science, religious verses etc to explain away something that will only make sense to you? I have been here some years now and I have watched you do all of these and join in conversations of all types, determined to introduce your personal belief. I think you miss the barn door every time you do join such conversations, because they all tend to be humans asking 'what can you show me to help me learn x/y/z...' whether x/y/z be religious doctrine, atheism, evolution or personal life questions on marriage or love etc

    Tec you are somewhat unique but not totally in repsonding with very personal, unexplainable belief and sometimes (no disrespect) non sensical talk, and when questioned further as to why you accept certain stances, so that we can understand them, you say such things as..

    "my Lord has asked me why it would matter to you or to anyone what I accept or not"

    SO WHY TALK TO US AT ALL ?

    Surely you understand that to everyone else, we just see someone with a very inverted view of the universe. We can all share our evidence and reasoning and logic and explinations to why we do not think there is a god and further, why there is not specifically an islamic, jewish, christian etc god.Humans progress through communication and sharing ideas, we stand on the shoulders of giants who led the way before us and it works! It gives us enlightenment and medicines and science. It promotes the seeking of truth!

    Now when you said...

    "Because my Lord has asked me why it would matter to you" surely if it is the lord talking to you he would know why it would matter to me! Trust me tec it does, otherwise why would I ask? Now do you men literally you heard him say that or do you know of some verse that somehow will defend that statement? Because in all the 25 years learning the bible I never saw that concept or attitude in Jesus' words or it even being inferred. The Jesus of the bible promotes education of the unbelievers by telling them your experience so as to preach a good news and to declare that all putting faith in him will gain life.... now the Jesus talking to you has said hat explaining your stance and belief is of questionable interest to people like me. That is not the Jesus from the bible? So what invention of Jesus is it? Based on what?

    I must continue this point, all the things you say Tec are very anti new testament/ OT or even the Quaran etc . What you explain is quite contrary to the techings of the bible and the quaran and of all religions I have ever researched yet oddly you refer to them. Either you are correct and they are all faulty or you are faulty and some or one of them are correct or you are both faulty. With the religions and religious texts I can test their statements as they clai to be truth and they are found to be flawed. You claim to have 'truths' and to follow 'truths' yet feel no need to explain why beyond it being personal to you.

    This is ok, but again it is of no use to anyone but you, so answering my questions was pure vanity surely?

    With that in mind and in addition to the very personal experiences and the voices you have mentioned hearing on several occasions. Is it possible that this whole perspective is unique to you because you alone are experiencing it and is it worth pondering if that is the case, why that is?

    I sincerely think fondly of you tec, even if I do get frustrated here sometimes and I apologise for that, but in 20 years of preaching and 7 years of significant research and debate on religion and the bible, I have never met anyone like you Tec, however.. I have met people who describe expeiences and similiar perspectives as I read here with you, who have other reasons for such beliefs other than spirituality.

    I sense a wearyness in you that i have not seen before, so I will not push you beyond this last post with you, I sense you are growing tired and apathetic to such...to be honest... legitimate and fair quetions from people.

    Snare x

  • tec
    tec

    I am not wearied by you or these questions or discussions such as this, Snare, not at all. So no worries : ) I apologize if I gave you that impression.

    Of course, weariness might be coming through my tone right now because I AM very tired this weekend (I am most weekends), but this is due to secular work and such. Not by your questions at all, or this discussion with you... which I quite enjoy. I am off to work again in a couple minutes, so must go. But I will talk more with you later!

    Peace to you,

    tammy

    (had to edit something out, sorry)

  • tec
    tec

    Been as only you have experienced your experiences and your choice of bible inteprtation is personal and your choice of which bible verses are true is based on personal standards....... is it fair to say you can't in any way communicate in any meaningful way with other humans about it?

    No, respectfully, it is not fair to say that at all.

    I don't have a choice of bible interpretation/which verses are accurate... etc. I simply know that nothing true will be in conflict with the Truth, and it is to Him that I look to see God. That IS backed by what is written. So is hearing the Spirit, and there are examples of such written as well. One who does not know/hear the Spirit might not be able to discuss the experience... but certainly they can discuss what is written about this.

    As someone well versed in the bible, in different beliefs, in science and physics and the etherial, I still have no anchors or groundings to underand what you describe.

    Okay, but in the last post I made, I answered your questions, and we could discuss those, even just from scripture.

    Also over time it seems your perspective has gathered pace on the wind in its shifting from place to place.

    My faith has grown but it has not changed. I would please need an example of what you are talking about.

    Now you have sentences that dont even make sense to me in any way at all.

    How can i respond if you do not even tell me which ones, lol?

    Part of me thinks this pleases you, a unique and individual experience of your own and I would never mock that. But, you cant preach or teach or converse with others about it, you cant reason or question or research, in fact your comments here are nonsensical to anyone not .....you..... it is all personal to... you.

    I might be the person you are seeing speaking of these things, giving my (one) witness... but none of this is unique to me. Not even on this forum is this unique to me.

    So, as much as I love your company :P x why do you join conversations like this?

    Because you asked the questions; and also to give my witness. You might not get anything out of it (other than enjoyment of my company, lol)... there are others who will/do. Even if just one; even if it is just something new to consider to help them as they seek Christ and God.

    In honesty tec, you can offer nothing more but "I am right because I personally know I am right." I appreciate that it means much to you, but that sentiment is dangrous I am sure you agree, because we could all by that logic use that logic to remain wrong. It may not matter to you that someone else be wrong, but for some annoying reason I am here right now, because it maters to me..... A LOT. Once upon a time, that young boy with naeievety was stood looking at the world saying "i know I am right" and it took 15 years, a hell of a lot of pain and honesty and loss to recognise how wrong I was.

    I've been wrong also, Snare... almost joined the wts, being wrong. So it is not that I am right... I make mistakes. It is that Christ is True.

    And... I am here right now too. I also care, as you do.

    Nobody can converse or reason with that statement tec...so here is the big question, why do you attempt to use logic, reasoning, science, religious verses etc to explain away something that will only make sense to you? I have been here some years now and I have watched you do all of these and join in conversations of all types, determined to introduce your personal belief. I think you miss the barn door every time you do join such conversations, because they all tend to be humans asking 'what can you show me to help me learn x/y/z...' whether x/y/z be religious doctrine, atheism, evolution or personal life questions on marriage or love etc

    It doesn't only make sense to me, Snare. Remember that not everyone comments on threads, especially not knowing how quickly a statment of faith may be pounced upon. And people helped me come to and hear Christ by giving their witnesses as well, helping to build me up.

    Tec you are somewhat unique but not totally in repsonding with very personal, unexplainable belief and sometimes (no disrespect) non sensical talk, and when questioned further as to why you accept certain stances, so that we can understand them, you say such things as..

    "my Lord has asked me why it would matter to you or to anyone what I accept or not"

    SO WHY TALK TO US AT ALL ?

    Why is that the only thing you commented on in my entire response to your questions? That was in regard to ONE, single, particular question that you asked. I responded to everything else. I am sorry if I was unclear in that.

    Surely you understand that to everyone else, we just see someone with a very inverted view of the universe. We can all share our evidence and reasoning and logic and explinations to why we do not think there is a god and further, why there is not specifically an islamic, jewish, christian etc god.Humans progress through communication and sharing ideas, we stand on the shoulders of giants who led the way before us and it works! It gives us enlightenment and medicines and science. It promotes the seeking of truth!

    If you can share your evidence and reasoning and logic and explanations as to why you do not think there is a god... then can I not also do the same when stating there is a God, and that I know Him through His Son?

    when you said...

    "Because my Lord has asked me why it would matter to you" surely if it is the lord talking to you he would know why it would matter to me!

    I'm not sure you are speaking of the same thing anymore. One specific particluar question, remember?

    Trust me tec it does, otherwise why would I ask? Now do you men literally you heard him say that or do you know of some verse that somehow will defend that statement? Because in all the 25 years learning the bible I never saw that concept or attitude in Jesus' words or it even being inferred. The Jesus of the bible promotes education of the unbelievers by telling them your experience so as to preach a good news and to declare that all putting faith in him will gain life.... now the Jesus talking to you has said hat explaining your stance and belief is of questionable interest to people like me. That is not the Jesus from the bible? So what invention of Jesus is it? Based on what?

    I believe this is based on your applying those words to everything, rather than one particular and single question.

    I must continue this point, all the things you say Tec are very anti new testament/ OT or even the Quaran etc . What you explain is quite contrary to the techings of the bible and the quaran and of all religions I have ever researched yet oddly you refer to them. Either you are correct and they are all faulty or you are faulty and some or one of them are correct or you are both faulty. With the religions and religious texts I can test their statements as they clai to be truth and they are found to be flawed. You claim to have 'truths' and to follow 'truths' yet feel no need to explain why beyond it being personal to you.

    You can test anything I say... against Christ and love, even if you are just going by what Christ is written to have said/done.

    This is ok, but again it is of no use to anyone but you, so answering my questions was pure vanity surely?

    You asked... I answered. I serve my Lord, and that means I serve any who belong to Him, and any who seek Him. (by choice, out of love)

    With that in mind and in addition to the very personal experiences and the voices you have mentioned hearing on several occasions. Is it possible that this whole perspective is unique to you because you alone are experiencing it and is it worth pondering if that is the case, why that is?

    If it was unique to me, I would still follow my Lord.

    But... in truth... this is not unique to me at all. Not according to the bible... and not according to others who know and hear Christ even now. It is religion that most often stands between man and this truth. I don't like making any sort of big deal about numbers though, because they do not matter. Religion has numbers... and that has not helped it to remain in Christ.

    Truth is truth... even if only one person knows it. A lie is still a lie... even if millions believe it.

    I sincerely think fondly of you tec, even if I do get frustrated here sometimes and I apologise for that, but in 20 years of preaching and 7 years of significant research and debate on religion and the bible, I have never met anyone like you Tec, however.. I have met people who describe expeiences and similiar perspectives as I read here with you, who have other reasons for such beliefs other than spirituality.

    I think fondly of you also, Snare. Your apology is accepted, though I would never hold that against you. I hope you accept the apology I gave for coming across as wearied with you or your questions. I am not.

    Peace and love to you and to your loved ones,

    tammy

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