Do we have "Free Will" or is it an illusion?

by Rod P 134 Replies latest members private

• 

  Rod P

  Most people believe they have free will. They believe that because they are free to choose what they want or don't want, or choose what they believe or do not believe, or to do what they want or to not do it. Therefore, because they have freedom of choice, they must have "free will", right? Or do they.......?

  Let's talk about God, or the Divine, for a minute. If we have "free will", then surely God does. But let's consider the physical universe we live in, and all of the laws of physics. By observation we note that nothing changes, unless it lacks something. The Divine, lacking nothing, cannot change. Therefore, any act performed by God, in eternity, must be done out of immutable (unchangeable) necessity. Therefore God does not have Free Will. And if He doesn't, we mortal men certainly do not have "free will".

  Now let us look at Man. John does something on Tuesday. This implies that on Monday, or earlier on Tuesday, John had the capacity to do what he did. And John cannot NOT BE what he IS. John chooses what he chooses precisely because HE IS WHAT HE IS. Because he is the sum total of his physical, genetic, mental, emotional, spiritual make-up, this sum total of His Being gives him the predisposition to choose in the way that he chooses, from the level of understanding he has, that results in WHAT his choice ultimately becomes. To reitereate, he chooses what he chooses, because he is what he is. This is another way of saying that what he chooses is inevitable.

  Just because John makes a certain choice when there is nobody or anything external forcing him to choose a certain way, does not mean he has "free will". He is trapped inside his own Beingness and Nature that then accounts for his making the very choice he ultimately makes. And as the consequences of a single choice interacts with his life, this too contributes to the future inevitable "moulding influence" on Him, which becomes a part of all that John is to a certain point in time, which he, as a collective whole, must now make a new choice about another situation or question. And this process goes on and on for the duration of his life, each choice adding to and creating a predispostion of his personality when it must again make another future choice. And so on. And so on. And so on.

  We inevitably become what we become thru the collective result of all the choice we made before, and we continue to choose what we choose because we are what we are, in essence and nature. Therefore, how can it be said that we truly have "Free Will"???

  Rod P.
• 

  EvilForce

  These are the arguments you need to have sitting around smoking a bong and arguing / debating in the hypothetical. Not being overly critical am I? But I find these type of roundabout reasoning arguments illogical and a waste of time. Sorry if I'm "pooping in the punchbowl" but I had to post how I felt. It's my free will do to do so eh?
  
  LOL
  
  Evil Force - Of the Need a Beer to Unwind Class
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  Euphemism

  I feel a strange compulsion to post on this thread...

  Sorry, couldn't resist. I actually agree with Rod P. And pace EvilForce, I do believe this is an important question. If there truly is no free will, it forces us to reconsider our notions of moral responsibility. After all, the whole ideas of 'guilt' and 'responsibility' are based on the concept of 'choice'. But if 'choice' is an illusion, then so are the concepts that follow from it.

  Now, in the context of everyday life, we need to actually reward good choices and discourage harmful ones. To the extent that the ideas of guilty and responsibility have that effect, they are useful and valid. So the question of free will has little impact on our daily lives.

  But it does affect the big questions of morality and desert. For example, is the purpose of criminal justice merely to prevent and deter antisocial behavior, or is it also to punish the criminal? Are people who accumulate great wealth entitled to keep it all to themselves, or should they be required to share some of it? Both are very practical and real questions, and they're related to the issue of free will.
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  Elsewhere

  Does it really matter if free will is real or an illusion? If it is an illusion, it means we are completely unable to discern that we do not have free will... no different than a robot who is programmed to be happy all of the time, or sad all of the time.

  (My little tribute to Marvin, the Paranoid Android. )
• 

  Rod P

  Evil Force,

  Then why don't you just inevitably go and have one of your inevitable beers, while the rest of us sit around and have one of those inevitable useless debates over free will! (LOL)

  I actually consider the question of free will critically important, because it does make a difference whether the life I am living is all inevitable based on the illusion of free will, or whether there is more to it than that. Not saying I have the answers, but I can always hope for a breakthrough. I would rather explore and debate and keep trying, than throwing up my hands with inevitable helplessness and resignation. If I'm goin' down, then it won't be without a fight!

  On the other hand, if that's all there is, then I suppose we might as well keep on dancing.

  Euphemism,

  In some respects, the people in prison ARE there as a punishment for their actions, meaning that they are considered to be responsible for their own actions, and they could have chosen NOT to do what they did. In addition, the matters of reward and punishment are integral to the society we live in. It's built-in, which means the world we live in is based on the assumption that we have free will, and are therefore responsible for the choices we make. Yet, even if free will is all an illusion, it seems to be a good thing to lock up the "bad guys" as a protection and for the safety and well-being of society as a whole, and also to deliver the message of what happens if you do "bad".

  If "free will" is a myth, then the whole socio-economic, politico-justice system by which Society functions, is, in fact, merely a bunch of mechanisms to train and condition us like dogs, with reward and punishment for our choices. We are simply programmed and programmable Androids.

  Let us now consider some of the implications of the "no free will" proposition. All religion is pointless, as it presumes a need for salvation, when it is actually unnecessary. God also is redundant. If He created us, then we do what we do because of the nature He implanted in each of us. There is no good and evil, no right and wrong, no morality, no ethics, no values. All is meaningless and pointless, and purposeless. We are no better, no more important, no more relevant, than the insects, the bacteria, the amoeba. We are simply going thru life with our three-score-and twenty years allotted to us (if fate does not intervene), and we basically are experiencing pain or pleasure in reaction to our environment and our own internal state of health. And when that is done, we get laid to rest or are cremated. End of pointless story, and we deserve to be forgotten.

  My point to all this is, we had better have "free will" in the final analysis, or else the human race is in big trouble. And if we really do have "free will" then somebody please explain to me in clear terms how exactly do we have "free will"?

  Rod P.
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  EvilForce

  Sorry, I was a bit short earlier...but I had a glass of Shiraz so I'm feeling much better now :)
  
  The Dub stuff starts to get me angry after awhile....but I suppose my Taoism/Buddhism shite ain't much better since most people think they are circular arguments. I will have another glass and then post my musings....
  
  Thanks for your patience :)
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  Rod P

  No problem EF, don't sweat it. Circular arguments are useful lessons.

  TTYL.

  Rod P.
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  Euphemism

  In some respects, the people in prison ARE there as a punishment for their actions, meaning that they are considered to be responsible for their own actions, and they could have chosen NOT to do what they did. In addition, the matters of reward and punishment are integral to the society we live in. It's built-in, which means the world we live in is based on the assumption that we have free will, and are therefore responsible for the choices we make. Yet, even if free will is all an illusion, it seems to be a good thing to lock up the "bad guys" as a protection and for the safety and well-being of society as a whole, and also to deliver the message of what happens if you do "bad".

  Right. Still, the rationale makes a difference. A lot of people who believe in the death penalty, for example, justify it on the grounds that a person who has taken life deserves to die. Whether or not the death penalty deters murder is a factual question, which we might actually be able to answer with sufficient research. Whether or not a murdurer deserves to die, however, is a moral question; and one which only makes sense if the murderer is presumed to have free will.

  Similar arguments can be made about the length of prison sentences, prison conditions, whether or not to allow torture or judicial corporal punishment, etc.

  Let us now consider some of the implications of the "no free will" proposition. All religion is pointless, as it presumes a need for salvation, when it is actually unnecessary.

  Actually, there are some forms of Christian religion--such as Calvinism--that do not presuppose free will. I believe that Hinduism and some forms of Islam also teach predestination, but I could be wrong.

  My point to all this is, we had better have "free will" in the final analysis, or else the human race is in big trouble.

  I disagree. It takes a while to wrap one's mind around the concept of life without free will; in fact, it's rather terrifying (at least it was for me). But after a while, you realize that it doesn't make a difference. We still experience love, art, and morality, even if we know that they are composed of deterministic physical processes. We still have the conscious experience of making choices.

  A sunset is not less beautiful because you know it's produced by the refraction of light. Sex with a person you love is not less moving just because you know it's a bundle of nerve sensations. And human consciousness is not less astounding merely because it's governed by physical laws.
• 

  Rod P

  Euphemism,

  I must admit you have some real food for thought there. But to me it makes a big, big difference to have "free will". It's just that I can't logically prove that we do have it. It bugs me to no end. (No, I'm not going off the deep end with this. I am just an armchair philosopher.)

  It's a bit like that phrase "Give me liberty, or give me death!"

  To me, "free will" is the equivalent of liberty.

  Of course, I have some strong Mormon background on this, because the principle of "free agency" is one of the pillars of their teachings, and the choices we make in this life, will have Eternal implications for us in the hereafter.

  Calvinism gets into the doctrine of Predestination and the Foreknowledge of God. I have a lot of difficulty accepting that one too. The idea that God knows in advance which one is of the Elect, who will be saved, versus those who are predestined for destruction just grips me the wrong way. In other words, let's just stand back and inherit our fate. Nothing we do will make a difference anyway. Oh, and don't forget "Who are we to question God?"

  As for having the consciousness of making choices, what is the point of even having such an awareness, when it means absolutely nothing? Why is it that man alone seems to have "self-awareness" while other species do not? Is this an accident of evolution, or has it been put there by a higher being? I know we are now in the territory of pondering the imponderable, and proving the unprovable. But I still want to know. It's what drives me on.

  On the other hand, maybe the lesson here is to get beyond our own egos which may be what is creating all these dilemmas and paradoxes in the first place. Maybe we need to transcend space and time, and move our consciousness beyond such limitations in order to become part of the whole- taking the plunge from self-identity into Universal Consciousness, where space and time do not exist. There is only the "Isness" and the "Nowness" of it all. Maybe this is where "free will" actually exists, while our earthbound "mortality mentality" is the illusion.

  Maybe that spark inside me is trying to tell me something.

  Rod P.
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  Bas

  I'm a convinced determinist, therefor I don't believe in free will in the broader sense. I believe the decisions we make are a product of genes, personal history and current circumstances. However the decision we make are the result of a (sub)conscious process within our brains which makes us feel we have free will, the outcome of the process however, was fixed before we even started the process. The process itself makes us feel we are in control, that we do have free will and our decisions are our own.

  The theory itself has very little direct practicle value but is (as far a I know) the best basetheory for understanding our world and science (particularly natural sciences). Mathematics for instance as the universal language is mostly a deterministic science. The sum 345 + 189 has only one fixed outcome, you might not know it yet, but you know there's only one possible answer....534

  My favorite page on determinism also talks about free will:

  http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/determinism-causal/

  Bas