LDH answered that the Fire and sea rescue services are not private and for profit industries.
Why SHOULDN'T medical services be the same?
HB
Health Care: A Right or a Privilege?
by prophecor 401 Replies latest members politics
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fairchild
The hard to hear truth is, most Americans do not know how to save for emergencies, medical included. I should not have to bear the burden for most people's lack of planning. How much do you want to bet, there are people reading this thread right now who don't have a damn penny put aside for medical emergencies. When something bad happens they will talk about how they 'fall through the cracks' etc etc. why isn't there any thing for them???
Sigh, you don't get it, do you? Reading this entire thread again, I have to conclude that you are either very judgemental or very ignorant. There exists a class of people in America who are poor. A person can be poor for various reasons, and you have generously named some of those reasons (not enough eductaion, over-spending, laziness, ignorance as to how to save, or just waiting until things get done for them). Yes, that is true, some people are poor for one or several of those very reasons. BUT there is a LARGE group of people in America who are poor because of entirely different reasons. Many of those people are honest, hard workers, just like you. You assume that being poor is solely a result of one's own bad or ignorant choices in life, or that poor people are not willing to do something about their situation. You might acknowledge that there are a few exceptions here and there and that there might be a handful of people around who can't get ahead, no matter how hard they try. Truth is, there are a LOT of people who can't get ahead, no matter how hard they try. I can hear you thinking.. they are not using ALL of their options. Wrong.
One of my friends her husband got hepatitis. They had GOOD health insurance. They didn't have any savings. You know why not? Because they were paying a LOT for their health insurance. They were ordinary people with just a single (second hand) car and 4 children. Between the kid's education and regular bills (including a high bill for health insurance) there wasn't much left to put aside each month. Her husband needed a liver transplant. He got one, and died a little while later. They knew he was going to die, so she asked some time off from work to be with him during the last days of his life. They had been married for 26 years, they were high school sweethearts. A solid and good relationship. She was by his side when he closed his eyes for good. In the meantime, the place she worked at closed the doors and she was out of a job. In spite of their "good" insurance, the hospital bills she had to pay from the transplant and 8 long stays in the hospital were enormous. The town got together and raised close to $5,000 during a benefit for her. The $5,000 was only a breath in the financial storm she was facing. She ended up declaring bankrupcy and lost everything. She was 48 years old at that time. She had little education. It was tough to find a job at her age, but she didn't give up and finally found a job waiting on tables. It has been quite a few years now. She is still waiting on tables, and you know why? She *could* have gone back to college as you would suggest, but no. Instead, she used all her free time setting up a quilting organization. Today, this organization has grown considerably and all the benefits go into a fund for people who need organ transplants and can't pay for it. She doesn't want anyone to go through the same thing she went through. When she has a bit extra at the end of the month, the money goes into the organ transplant fund. Yes indeed, she is one of those many Americans who don't have "a damn penny put aside for emergencies"
You need to understand that everyone has a story, and even if it is not a success story, it is not necessarily a story of failure and/or misfortunes which they brought upon themselves. Sometimes success is a matter of being lucky, it is not always a matter of being smart and industrious, trust me.
A smoker can get lung cancer, but a non smoker can get lung cancer also. In the same way, a person who is lazy can be poor, but a hard worker can be poor as well. You can stubbornly say that there is always a way out of poverty as long as one is willing to find that way, but I am going to keep telling you with the same stubborness that not everyone who doesn't have a stash in a savings account is poor simply because they don't know how to save.
Yes, there are always going to be lazy people, there are always going to be people who milk out the system, every country has them and America is no exception. But the ones who milk out the system are greatly outnumbered by honest, hard working people, and even if some of those people make poor decisions which keep them poor, they are not usually the ones who will complain about falling through the cracks.
And to get back to health insurance, no matter how one twists or turns it, the system is seriously messed up, period. You said it yourself, it is a for profit business. A for profit business usually makes money and that money comes out of *someone's* pocket. As for the alternatives to the "for profit" business, they are great to have around, but not everyone is eligible to use them.
Again, and again, if there was nothing wrong with the American health system, this thread would not exist. Listen to the people who have responded to this thread, the people who can not be insured because of a chronic illness, or the ones who can not be insured, period. Again, it is not right. And when you are standing on the dry, sunny deck of a boat, even if you had to crawl with great difficulty to get on the deck, it is not right to look at the people who are drowning in the water below and to assume that they jumped off the deck. I am sure that some did jump, but many just fell off or never got close enough to the boat to climb on, no matter how fast they were swimming. Remember the Titanic? Some of the rescue boats left with very few people in them, had they waited around and given a hand, many more people could have been rescued. But no, let's take care of ourselves without worrying about anyone else. How about the ones who went under with the Titanic, was it their own fault? Should they have jumped off sooner and hel on to a floating object? Did they make a poor decision? Remember that the poor ones who were below deck were basically locked up and didn't get a chance to come above deck unitl pretty much all the rescue boats were gone. The world is just one huge Titanic, isn't it? Some are in the rescue boats and take off, forgetting about the ones still in the water. Others are already in over-full rescue boats, but they are still reaching out with their hands, trying to pull another swimmer out of the sea. And then there are the ones who row as fast as they can. afraid that too many swimmers will jump on the boat and it will sink. As much as there weren't enough boats for the people on the Titanic, in this country and in the world in general, there are not enough decent jobs with benefits for people.
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daniel-p
Man I can't believe this thread is still running strong. I guess I just don't have the energy to hash/rehash issues over economics of which there are many differing opinions basically trying to explain and speculate on socialogical phenomena which do not really have an answer.
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FlyingHighNow
The hard to hear truth is, most Americans do not know how to save for emergencies, medical included. I should not have to bear the burden for most people's lack of planning.
Oh man, I don't believe this. You don't know that some of us haven't spent every extra penny we have on healthcare already. Like Fairchild said, she spent her life's savings on medical care.You don't know what people have and don't have. Why jump to the conclusion that people have the luxury of saving significant amounts for medical care? Rabbit told you that his medication costs him large amounts each month. I know people with no insurance who spend hundreds of dollars each month on Rx's.
I'm just shaking my head. Saving is a no brainer, if you can save. Don't assume that people have large amounts of money to do this with. And it takes large amounts of money to get sick and be treated for it. Try getting something as simple as a kidney stone and see how fast you spend a couple of thousands of dollars just for x-rays and medications and lost time at work. I used to get three to six a year. I ended up having surgery and it cost me $28,000 for less than a night's stay in the hospital. Thank god I had insurance at the time. But we still had to pay a lot of it.
I'll tell you what Andy tells me when he thinks I am sounding the least bit smug or even remotely like I am bragging or judging, "Well, I guess you're just a better person than me." Then there is Neil Young, "I wonder what it's like to be so far over my head."
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fairchild
Try getting something as simple as a kidney stone and see how fast you spend a couple of thousands of dollars just for x-rays and medications and lost time at work.
Hehe, been there, done that. Total was $4,000, right out of my *gasp* savings account. The ride in the ambulance (30 miles) came to $960. *shakes head*
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LDH
Guys, I don't disagree with you. The system sucks, but it's what we have now. You have to learn how to work it.
Yes, that is true, some people are poor for one or several of those very reasons. BUT there is a LARGE group of people in America who are poor because of entirely different reasons.
While that is true, I do not assume who has what reason for being poor. I told you that I worked in a very large organization which made many financial tools available for PLANNING and SAVING and these same people who were complaining about having to pay their 20% portion would come to work every week with a "baby Louis Vuitton under their underarm" driving a nicer car than me, nicer clothes than me, and yet running to "Pay Day Loan" every week.
For the TRULY POOR there is a safety net available. I have posted several references. For the WORKING POOR there is probably not a safety net option for them. That is where planning comes in.
As a last thought, about 8 years ago I saw a documentary on PrimeTime where a family had a young son with AIDS, and he was terminal. They had blown through all of their savings and investments and everything else. Medical bills were in the millions, and they didn't have access to that kind of resource. They went to their accountant who advised them, "Get you son all the treatment he needs. Worry about your son. When the time comes and he passes on, declare bankruptcy."
Yes, BANKRUPTCY should be an option too.
The lady that sat next to me for the last three years declared bankruptcy five years ago. She always complained of having to pay for her son's asthma inhalers, and sometimes had to 'borrow' the money to pay for them. Do you know what she bought in March of this year?
http://wavemakercoaching.com/IHD/products_wavemaker.html
It costs $7,500. You can see that for yourself. This is to help her in her 'life coaching' business. As far as I'm concerned this is a serious mix up in priorities.
I guess I have seen too many of these examples to believe that 100% of the people who are complaining have merit to their complaint.
I am an absolute skeptic because of my experience.
The way the majority of the system is set up, it is a for-profit business. There are tricks to this trade just like there are tricks to other trades.
As far as I'm concerned EVERY publicly traded corporation cares only for the interest of the share holder, and 90% of the time that is the RICH getting RICHER with no concern for the common man. I cited another example in this very thread, the petroleum industry couldn't care less that you and I were paying $3 a gallon at the pump this year.
However my offer still stands, if you have not used links I provided but need help finding insurance resources, PM me.
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LDH
PS Fairchild,
Just so's you'll know I'm not ignorant. My personal physician sent me a letter a month ago stating he has terminal lung cancer, and no he's never been a smoker.
Of course worse case scenarios can and will happen. But if you plan ahead there is a good chance you can minimize financial impact.
If you don't save anything for a rainy day, when the rainy day comes, who will you depend on? who will you blame?
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Vivamus
I just want to comment on the saving part and who to blame if you haven't saved and end up a beggar when something happens.
Of course worse case scenarios can and will happen. But if you plan ahead there is a good chance you can minimize financial impact.
If you don't save anything for a rainy day, when the rainy day comes, who will you depend on? who will you blame?
Right now I have a fantastic job, I am able to save, plan, invest and buy lots of cool things like a house at the same time. But I have not always been in this place. Two years ago I could barely manage to pay my bills and my mum frequently saved me from bankruptcy. At that time, I would not be able to save one cent, considering my landlord would want that one cent. When I read of people that need to have 3 jobs in order just to pay the bills, forgive me, I can totally understand those people are not really able to save or arrange funds in case the worst scenario happens. People can be stuck in such a financially rotten place, you'd need a miracle to get out of it.
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JH
Hey Viv, nice seeing you post !!!
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Vivamus
Hey Viv, nice seeing you post !
JH Yeah, Im on vacation and decided to read up on this place ... see if you guys missed me