Jesus was a liar.

by nicolaou 123 Replies latest watchtower bible

nicolaou
Firstly, it is not my intention here to offend anyone so if you are likely to get upset at reading 'blasphemous' statements or criticism of Jesus then perhaps you should go to another topic. Also, I am not in the habit of making personal attacks on other posters, if you decide to stay and read this - don't attack me! By all means rip my post to pieces and explain where I got it all wrong, but don't shoot the messenger.
And remember, I come from the same place as most of you, I was one of Jehovah's Witnesses for over thirty years. All that being said, let's plough on - this is your last chance to leave...
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Having reached an atheistic outlook, I began to wonder where logic would take me when re-examing the story of Jesus. If there is no God then Jesus must clearly have lied when he claimed to be the son of God. If the laws of physics are immutable then clearly Jesus, either alone or more likely in concert with others, was being deceitful when he claimed to have performed miraculous cures, resurrections and other miracles like walking on water.
A serious study of what Jesus actually said leads a person to one of three conclusions about him: He was either a liar, an insanely deluded madman, or the Messiah, the Son of God. It is ridiculous to simply take the position that he was just 'a good teacher'.
Jesus made some incredible claims no ordinary person would dare to make. He emphatically claimed to be the source of truth and the only way to everlasting life. To my knowledge, only Jesus among the significant religious leaders of history said such a thing.
Here are a few of Jesus outrageous claims as recorded in the book of John.
He told Thomas that no-one could come to God except through him and when "Philip said, Lord, show us the Father' he claimed to be, at the very least, the perfect reflection of God!
5 Thomas said to him: “Lord, we do not know where you are going. How do we know the way?” 6 Jesus said to him: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If YOU men had known me, YOU would have known my Father also; from this moment on YOU know him and have seen him.” 8 Philip said to him: “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9 Jesus said to him: “Have I been with YOU men so long a time, and yet, Philip, you have not come to know me? He that has seen me has seen the Father [also]. . . ." (John 14:5-9)
Again, when the Pharisees were disparaging Jesus and challenging Him, Jesus - depending on which brand of Christianity you adhere to - claimed either to be God or equality with God or, at the very least, to be the son of God.
30 I and the Father are one.” 31 Once more the Jews lifted up stones to stone him. 32 Jesus replied to them: “I displayed to YOU many fine works from the Father. For which of those works are YOU stoning me?” 33 The Jews answered him: “We are stoning you, not for a fine work, but for blasphemy, even because you, although being a man, make yourself a god.” 34 Jesus answered them: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “YOU are gods”’? 35 If he called ‘gods’ those against whom the word of God came, and yet the Scripture cannot be nullified, 36 do YOU say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, I am God’s Son. . . (John 10:30-36)
When challenged by the scholars on his authority over Abraham, the father of the Jews,Jesus clearly claimed to have existed thousands of years earlier than Abraham!
56 "Abraham YOUR father rejoiced greatly in the prospect of seeing my day, and he saw it and rejoiced.” 57 Therefore the Jews said to him: “You are not yet fifty years old, and still you have seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.” (John 8:56-58)
On the issue of mortality Jesus claimed to have authority over life and death.
25 Jesus said to her: “I am the resurrection and the life. He that exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life; 26 and everyone that is living and exercises faith in me will never die at all. . . . (John 11:24-26)
These are just a very few examples, we haven't even touched on the so-called 'miracles'. So where does the answer lay? What do you think? A man who makes claims like these must either be a liar, insane, or, as he claimed to be, the son of God.
Which is it?
.................................................................................................................................................... I'm aware that some may see this post as breaking the Posting Guidelines.
Insulting, threatening or provoking language
Inciting hatred on the basis of race, religion, gender, nationality or sexuality or other personal characteristic.
Swearing, using hate-speech or making obscene or vulgar comments.
If Simon or any of the moderators feel they need to remove it that is fine - no offence will be taken nor will any explanation be needed. Nic'
Scully
I'm aware that some may see this post as breaking the Posting Guidelines.
Insulting, threatening or provoking language

Inciting hatred on the basis of race, religion, gender, nationality or sexuality or other personal characteristic.

Swearing, using hate-speech or making obscene or vulgar comments.
If Simon or any of the moderators feel they need to remove it that is fine - no offence will be taken nor will any explanation be needed.
Politely expressing an opinion and opening the floor to a discussion of that opinion is what you've done, Nic. Carry on.
jwfacts

They are outrageous claims if Jesus was not the heavenly son of God.

One thing that you did not seem to include is that maybe Jesus never did or said all the things that were attributed to him.

The gospels were written years, even decades after Jesus death. In the time between when Jesus died and the Gospels were written his early followers had spent great effort going through the OT looking for parallel prophecies that the Messiah was supposed to fulfil, in an attempt to prove the Jesus was the one predicted to come.

It is quite possible that the Gospel writers, over the years that passed, embellished what Jesus actually said and did.

It is similar to how the Proclaimers Book recalls the WTS history, even though much of it happened only a few decades ago and is still easy to find out the reality. There is a general avoidance or gloss over of embarrasing moments, and still the statements that God was personally directing the Organisation, despite failed time prophecy to show otherwise.
Scully

It is quite possible that the Gospel writers, over the years that passed, embellished what Jesus actually said and did.

Of course it is possible. Same as how in the beginning, people lived to the ripe old age of 900+ and Nephilim were really 16 cubits tall. Maybe even along the same lines as Greek and Roman mythology where Zeus could hurl thunderbolts, or morph from one form to another in order to have relations with lots of different women.
Myths, miracles and such are much more interesting than plain old boring reality.
BluesBrother

There is external corroboration that Jesus was viewed as the Christ or Messiah in his own lifetime.
Josephus
"[Ananus the high priest] convened the judges of the Sanhedrin and brought before them a man named James, the brother of Jesus who was called the Christ." (Jewish Antiquities, XX, 200)
If the claim was later interpolated into the teaching of an otherwise "good teacher" then the whole basis for his arrest and death at the hand of the Romans is invalid
I agree with the statement, that he is either really the Son of God, or a deluded imposter
jwfacts

Good point BB.
Thinking about it I am not sure that there is anything too deluded about being called Christ though. It just means to be annointed. As Jesus is supposed to have said, many others were also calling themselves Christ. This alone may have been enough for him to be tried, if he was causing political problems.
It is the other statements attributed to him, that he alone is the way to everlasting life and claiming virtual equality with God that enters a realm of being extra ordinary. My point is that maybe he did not go that far, it was only his followers in later times that went this far in there persecuted religious fervour.
It is similar for Buddhism and Islam. Mostly the Holy works was written afterwards by followers and quite possibly are not an accurate representation of how they really thought of themselves, or what they taught.
Golf

Nothing wrong with your post Nic, no need for deletion. 30 years you say, well, I've been familiar with the org. since 1948.

I believe in letting time reveal things and time has revealed some interesting things to me. I'm a strong believer in a Creator, this belief did not come about by the influence of my parents or the org. I arrived at that belief on my own.

I remember giving some suggestions to a person who was age twenty-one at the time and I said, when you reach thirty/thirty-five, the lights bulbs will come on. Well, fifteen years later I asked that person if the light bulbs ever came on and she said, yes!

I'm of the belief that the Bible has been tampered with. The Bible is a history book of the Nation of Israel and their relationship with their Maker. I will not deny anyone's history. In my culture there are some things I don't believe in, does this mean I should have no faith and trust in the rest of my culture?

My question to you and others is "Do you believe in yourself?" if you do, to what degree?

Golf
Deputy Dog

Golf
My question to you and others is "Do you believe in yourself?" if you do, to what degree?
Great question! Mine is similar. "How can we know (or believe) anything?"
D Dog
nicolaou

Do I believe in myself? Of course I do! I believe in my reasoning ability, I believe in the decisions I've made recently to favour reason and logic over faith and belief. I have confidence in what I say and write as opposed to a dogmatic insistence that I am right.
Of course, I know that I could be wrong about any or or all of the statements I make. There could be a god, the bible could be true, Jehovah's Witnesses could be preaching the the truth (ugh, my skin crawled just typing that) but in all those instances I have used cold, hard reason to reach the same conclusion; that the possibility that I am wrong is so vanishingly remote that I am prepared to say, there is no god, the bible is not true and JW's are wrong.
Hubris? Pride? I honestly don't think so.
Now as far as this topic is concerned, how would Jesus have answered the question - "Do I believe in myself"?
Satanus

In your second point, nic, in the pantheist scenario, claiming to be god(s) would not necesarily be claiming equality, or claiming to be a god. The reason is because, to a pantheist, all are extensions of god, all part of the same tree. Perhaps you have read about those trees that look like a forest of individual trees, but underneath, they are all connected through the root system, thus being one tree. Hmmm, maybe that is equality w god. Just a thought. Jesus the pantheist - is that blasphemous? Haha. Hey, it's early, and i'm only on my first coffee.
S

Jesus was a liar.

Share this