Daniel's Prophecy, 605 BCE or 624 BCE?

by Little Bo Peep 763 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • scholar
    scholar

    Narkissos

    Hardly. Nothing at all has been settled for if all the scholars in Christendom cannot agree on the date of the Fall of Jerusalem, the chronology of the seventy years and a chronology of the Divided Monarchy then what hope is there for this discussion board? None of the points raised on this board has refuted the overwhelming biblical and secular evidence for 607 as that powerful metaphor that Judah would become a heap of ruins, desolate for seventy years vindicates WT chronology. Your black knight has been overthrown by the white knight - Sir Invincible Scholar.

    scholar JW

  • EvilForce
    EvilForce

    Scholar....I love you man but you are as crazy as a shit house rat !!! I've read your rants now for 3 months. In fact I've even included you in our JWD.com family at:
    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/92972/1.ashx
    So come on brother....admit defeat. Come onto JWD.com and start posting as normal, well adjusted, caring, human being. You look so crazy after 32 pages of posts where you are clearly wrong. Throw off the yoke of the WTBS and "get real" with us. Tell us some funny stories. Tell us some crazy "field service" experiences you've had....but most importantly....agree to disagree and come in out of the rain.....Ok buddy ?!? I'm serious. Let this 607/587 b.s. go by the wayside for a few months. Really the water is warm....trust me...come on in.

  • stillajwexelder
    stillajwexelder

    overwhelming biblical and secular evidence for 607

    J***S F$#@@@g Chr^^ - I will give this thread a rest words fail me - I really would like to see just one piece of evidence for 607 - just one piece would be good - but it aint going to happen

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Having just seen Monty Python's Spamalot just a few hours ago, I am loving the Black Knight references (it was pretty funny seeing them do this live, with a bit of sleight of hand).

    Your black knight has been overthrown by the white knight - Sir Invincible Scholar.

    Would this be the same "Invincible Scholar" that made numerous false claims in this thread?

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/90425/1522815/post.ashx#1522815

  • toreador
    toreador

    Good one Leo!

  • scholar
    scholar

    Leolaia

    You provide a list of six so called false satements made by me. I interpret matters somewhat differently for I may have made one or two technical errors but as I am not a scholar of Hebrew and if a mistake is made then I am happy to be corrected. Your list is nothing short of a perversion of truth, typical perverted poztate thinking. The facts are that Jeremiah 29:10 has been accurately translated with the phrase 'at Babylon' in accordance with all Hebrew lexica and grammar, consistent with the textual tradition, the context of the chapter and the book of Jeremiah.

    Perhaps you should pay more attention to your bizarre thesis that stauros does not mean stake but cross and the nonsense that parousia does not mean presence but coming. Perhaps these willey poztates should now produce their own grammars and lexicons or have their nonsense research published in reputable scholarly journals.

    scholar JW

  • toreador
    toreador

    I dont ask to many questions of you scholar because most are better acquainted with this 606/607 versus 586/587 matter than I.

    But here is a couple questions for you.

    1. Lets say you, against all odds you were right, does it make sense that the preponderance of the evidence would point to a date of 586/587 and be wrong?

    2.Would God be a "good" God desiring all to be saved if he allowed the evidence to be so skewed towards 586/587 that most of the worlds scholars and researchers would be wrong.

    3.If you say yes then God will destroy most of mankind for rejecting the doctrine of the Rutherfore/Franz who were not even secular scholars if scholars at all, because they were not able to discern 586/7 was in fact wrong. Is this correct?

    I just dont have the time or desire to completely understand this date setting, so where does this leave me at the time of God's judgement?

    I would like your thoughts please whatever they may be.

    Thank you,

    Tor

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos
    The facts are that Jeremiah 29:10 has been accurately translated with the phrase 'at Babylon' in accordance with all Hebrew lexica and grammar, consistent with the textual tradition, the context of the chapter and the book of Jeremiah.

    A la Tex Avery (Blitz Wolf): "You missed me, you missed me, you didn't even touch me!"

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    You provide a list of six so called false satements made by me. I interpret matters somewhat differently for I may have made one or two technical errors but as I am not a scholar of Hebrew and if a mistake is made then I am happy to be corrected.

    Those are not mere technical errors. These include big blunders of fact (such as #1) in which a whole line of argument is based on such error, or attempts to bluff your way by claiming things are one way when they are not (such as your claim #4 that Jenni never cited Jeremiah 29:10, or your claim #3 that le is used in Jeremiah 29:28). It is one thing to have an erstwhile error of recall or analysis, it is another thing to make assertions repeatedly without regard to the facts.

    Your list is nothing short of a perversion of truth, typical perverted poztate thinking.

    The list is a fair representation of what has gone on in this thread....you making bald assertions to back up the WTS translation and chronology, and others showing that your so-called facts and claims have no substance.

    The facts are that Jeremiah 29:10 has been accurately translated with the phrase 'at Babylon' in accordance with all Hebrew lexica and grammar, consistent with the textual tradition, the context of the chapter and the book of Jeremiah.

    A case in point, with respect to your "facts". Yes, "at Babylon" is technically possible if we disregard the grammatical context and look only at what lexicons may "permit" a word to mean. It is just as possible to render the phrase as "seventy years according to Babylon", even tho this is almost surely wrong. But as Narkissos, Marjorie, Jenni, and I have shown throughout this thread, "at Babylon" is a most unlikely translation, whereas "for Babylon" or a quasi-possessive (e.g. "Babylon's seventy years") is the best way to capture the dative sense of the phrase, especially considering the given construction. Comparing the two alternatives, there is no question that "for Babylon" is vastly superior to "at Babylon". Just because "at Babylon" is technically possible in some limited contexts does not justify the WTS' mistranslation of this verse.

    Perhaps you should pay more attention to your bizarre thesis that stauros does not mean stake but cross

    There is nothing bizarre about it at all. Care to explain why you think it is bizarre? Because if ancient Greek writers used it to mean "cross", well, it can mean cross! And you misrepresent my essay to say that I claim "that stauros does not mean stake". For you to imply such a thing shows that you do not understand my "thesis" at all.

    and the nonsense that parousia does not mean presence but coming.

    Again, nonsense in your mind, but not in reality. Care to prove that parousia does not mean "coming"? And again, you misrepresent things to say that I claimed "that parousia does not mean presence".

    Perhaps these willey poztates should now produce their own grammars and lexicons or have their nonsense research published in reputable scholarly journals.

    Reputable scholarly journals and reference works already discuss how stauros can refer to a "cross", parousia can mean "coming", or ..... how le can mean (indeed, usually means) "for, belonging to".

  • scholar
    scholar

    Leolaia

    Such technical errors were made possible by the inability for such poztates to present all the facts whence they were making such dogmatic statements concerning Jeremiah 29:10 It was I not you that requested that Jenni's material be posted in full and that took repeated requests on my part. It is you that continue to make bold assertions without facts to support such assertions. Now, you grudgingly admit that technically speaking, the translation le is possible only if one disregards the grammatical context and look only at what lexicons permit. This is dishonest and rather meaningless. The facts is that le can have a locative meaning in this context and you have not cited any rule of grammar that prevents le being translated 'at' in this case. the preoposition le has a wide semantic range and does possess a locative meaning. The immediate context favors the locative sense over the instrumental because the expression for Babylon would indicate that the seventy years belong to Babylon. Conversely, the the scriptures indicate quite plainly that the seventy years belong to Judah, the land, people alone and not to Babylon.

    The simple fact is that there is no justification in saying that the NWT is wrong in this instant and that it is impossible to say that the phrase cannot be rendered locatively.

    Greek lexicography currently asserts that stauros means stake and parousia means presence and so the position of the WT scholars on these matters remains vindicated despite the best efforts of poztates to rewrite the lexica.

    scholar JW

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