Daniel's Prophecy, 605 BCE or 624 BCE?

by Little Bo Peep 763 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro
    Another possible explanation imo would be to consider zeh as a demonstrative pronoun ("this one," i.e. "this period"), not adjective... but it is more dubious as the neuter would normally be expressed by the feminine; and it would not very different as to meaning and translation.

    This suggests that it can mean "this (demonstrative pronoun) 70[of] (adjective) year (noun)", ('seventy years' forming a collective noun), meaning that the period does not essentially have to have ended.

    Anyway, if you don't accept the above suggestions you still have to explain why zeh does not agree either with the plural of shiv`im or with the feminine of shanah...

    The singular 'zeh' does seem consistent with a '70-year period' which functions as a collective noun (singular), though I can't comment on the specifics of the Hebrew.
    In any case, since Zechariah chapter 1 is discussing a vision that Zechariah had, it is not necessary that the angel's words necessarily applied to Zechariah's present in Darius' 2nd year.
    (Of course it would be completely meaningless both to have the vision, and for the angel to ask the question if the period had ended in the past).

  • jonathan dough
    jonathan dough

    The fact of the matter is that from the time of the desolation of the land without an inhabitant until the reoccupation of the exiles was exactly seventy years right to the very month Tishri.

    Scholar seems convinced that the exile ended in 537 on the exiles' return to Palestine, but that is incorrect. Accordingly, the JWs' Return theory falls short of 70 years.

    G. The nations' seventy years of servitude ended in 539 B.C.E. when Babylon fell to the Persians and Medes while the exiles were still in Babylon, thus bringing to a conclusion the servitude prophecy at Jeremiah 25:11, before the Jews returned home.

    So, in light of Jeremiah’s detailed explanation in chapter 25 and elsewhere that the seventy years of servitude applied to the nations of the earth that came under the domination of Babylon, the Dominant Babylonian Empire theory, what did he intend to convey in his letter to the exiles at Jeremiah 29:10? Did he mean that after the nations collectively finished serving Babylon seventy years when the empire fell he would turn his attention to the exiles and return them home? Or did he mean, as the Jehovah’s Witnesses argue, that after the exiles returned home to Judah after having served at Babylon seventy years, beginning with the destruction of Jerusalem, he would turn his attention to them and bring them home from Babylon? That doesn't make sense, but that is precisely what they are arguing, even though on its face it is obviously illogical. None-the-less, even assuming that their interpretation is correct it fails repeatedly under a simple test.

    Under the test, if the seventy-year period ended in 539 B.C.E. when Babylon fell and the Persians and Medes began to reign while the exiles were still in Babylon, the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ Return theory fails in three significant ways: a) the seventy years obviously did not end upon their return in 537 B.C.E., b) their seventy-year period amounts to only 68 years from 607 B.C.E. to 539 B.C.E., and c) from the fall of Babylon in October 539 B.C.E. to the exiles’ return to Judah in 537 B.C.E. there was no king of Babylon to serve. So when exactly did the prophecy at Jeremiah 25:11 end, whereby “these nations” would stop serving the king of Babylon seventy years? It ended in October, 539 B.C.E., not upon their return in 537 B.C.E.

    First, nowhere in the Bible does it state that the return of the Jews marked the end of the seventy years. Second, Leviticus 26:32-35 whereby Moses prophesied the pending curse and punishment that befell the Jews states that Jehovah would scatter them among the nations and that the land would become a desolation, and Judah would pay off its Sabbaths all the days of its lying desolate while the exiles were in the land of their enemies, Babylon, and not after they returned.

    32 And I, for my part, will lay the land desolate, and YOUR enemies who are dwelling in it will simply stare in amazement over it. 33 And YOU I shall scatter among the nations, and I will unsheathe a sword after YOU; and YOUR land must become a desolation, and YOUR cities will become a desolate ruin.

    34 “‘At that time the land will pay off its sabbaths all the days of its lying desolated, while YOU are in the land of YOUR enemies. At that time the land will keep sabbath, as it must repay its sabbaths. 35 All the days of its lying desolated it will keep sabbath, for the reason that it did not keep sabbath during YOUR sabbaths when YOU were dwelling upon it.

    So even though the exiles had not reoccupied the desolated lands and were still in Babylon, the seventy-year prophetic curse ended.

    Third, Jeremiah 25:12 states that only after the seventy years had ended, or been fulfilled, Jehovah would call to account against the king of Babylon, which he did beginning with its fall to Cyrus in October 539 B.C.E., one date the Jehovah’s Witnesses and everyone else seem to agree on. The seventy years ended when Babylon fell, not two years later when the exiles stepped foot back on the soil of Judah.

    12 “‘And it must occur that when seventy years have been fulfilled I shall call to account against the king of Babylon and against that nation,’ is the utterance of Jehovah, ‘their error, even against the land of the Chal·de´ans, and I will make it desolate wastes to time indefinite. 13 And I will bring in upon that land all my words that I have spoken against it, even all that is written in this book that Jeremiah has prophesied against all the nations. 14 For even they themselves, many nations and great kings, have exploited them as servants; and I will repay them according to their activity and according to the work of their hands.’”

    Fourth, Jeremiah 29:10 likewise concludes the end of the seventy-year period of servitude while the Jews were in Babylon, not after they returned.

    10 “For this is what Jehovah has said, ‘In accord with the fulfilling of seventy years at Babylon I shall turn my attention to YOU people, and I will establish toward YOU my good word in bringing YOU back to this place.’

    11 “‘For I myself well know the thoughts that I am thinking toward YOU,’ is the utterance of Jehovah, ‘thoughts of peace, and not of calamity, to give YOU a future and a hope. 12 And YOU will certainly call me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to YOU.’

    13 “‘And YOU will actually seek me and find [me], for YOU will search for me with all YOUR heart. 14 And I will let myself be found by YOU,’ is the utterance of Jehovah. ‘And I will gather YOUR body of captives and collect YOU together out of all the nations and out of all the places to which I have dispersed YOU,’ is the utterance of Jehovah. ‘And I will bring YOU back to the place from which I caused YOU to go into exile.’

    After the seventy years ended Jehovah would turn his attention to his people and bring them back. The seventy years had to end first in 539 B.C.E., in Babylon, and only then would his people be gathered together and brought back.

    Fifth, 2 Chronicles 36:20 states that the captives removed to Babylon would be servants to the king “until the royalty of Persia began to reign,” which began October 539 B.C.E. and not until the exiles physically returned to Judah two years later.

    "Furthermore, he carried off those remaining from the sword captive to Babylon, and they came to be servants to him and his sons until the royalty of Persia began to reign; ... "

    Both sides agree that Babylon fell to the Persians in October 539 B.C.E. That fall signaled the beginning of Persia’s reign. The prophet Daniel foretold its sudden collapse when he interpreted the writing on the wall for Babylon’s king Belshazzer,“This is the interpretation of the word: MENE, God has numbered [the days of] your kingdom and finished it.” And he did in 539 B.C.E.

    Sixth, the Jehovah’s Witnesses at page 24 contradict themselves because they also claim that Ezra wrote that the seventy years ran until the first year of Cyrus which they submit was his first regnal year, which would actually be his second year of having power.

    ... the inspired Bible writer Ezra reported that the 70 years ran until “the first year of Cyrus the king of Persia,” who issued a decree allowing the Jews to return to their homeland. (Ezra 1:1-4; 2 Chronicles 36:21-23)

    At Ezra 1:1, reference is made to “the first year of Cyrus,” not “the year Cyrus became king” (or accession year), so he was speaking of the first regnal year of Cyrus, which cuneiform documentation places in 538/537B.C.E. Jewish historian Josephus corroborates by referring to “the first year of the reign of Cyrus.”—Antiquities of the Jews, Book XI, Chapter I.

    This statement is false. The inspired Bible writer Ezra never said that, and furthermore, their position contradicts the Jehovah’s Witnesses' own claim under its Return theory that the seventy years ran until the exiles returned to Judah in the fall of 537 B.C.E., long after the decree setting them free was issued, and after Cyrus began to reign. Not only is it a contradiction, but it is not correct. In the first place it contravenes 2 Chronicles 36:22 just quoted which pegs the end of the 70 years at the inception of the reign of Persian royalty, which began immediately when Babylon fell in 539 B.C.E., not one year later beginning with the second, or ‘regnal’ year of Cyrus’ rule. Again, common sense is in order. Setting the Record Straight at 24 claims “the first year of Cyrus” was his first regnal year which would be his second actual year of ruling Babylon. However that would create a one-year gap between Babylon’s fall and the Persians’ reign, and surely no one could suggest that when Cyrus made his triumphant entry 16 days after Babylon’s fall in October 539 B.C.E. to his army that the reign of Persia had not yet begun or that the Babylonian Empire was still ruling and in control. Daniel said that the Babylonian kingdom was finished.

    Read Ezra 1:1-4 and 2 Chronicles 36:21-23 carefully. Ezra did not state that the seventy years ran until the first regnal (or second actual) year of Cyrus the Persian’s reign. Ezra did not say that in order for the seventy years to come to an end Cyrus had to issue his decree setting them free which was long after Persia began to rule. One of their contradictions ends in Babylon, the other in Judah, and it is strategically and scripturally not feasible to occur at the exact same time or in the same year.

    So what basis do the Jehovah’s Witnesses claim supports their belief that the seventy-year prophecy ended upon the exiles’ return to Judah in 537 B.C.E. and not earlier when Babylon fell to Persia in 539 B.C.E.? Nothing, as it turns out, although they allude to their reasoning in Setting the Record Straight at p. 25, 26:

    “And in the first year of Cyrus the king of Persia, that Jehovah’s word from the mouth of Jeremiah might be accomplished, Jehovah roused the spirit of Cyrus the king of Persia so that he caused a cry to pass through all his realm.”—Ezra 1:1 (see also 2 Chronicles 36:22).

    The highlighted portion of the above-quoted verse serves as unimpeachable evidence that “Jehovah’s word from the mouth of Jeremiah” had not yet been accomplished, even by the “first year of Cyrus,” proving conclusively that the conquest of Babylon by Persia was not the determining factor in fulfilling Jeremiah’s prophecy.

    All that this vague and convoluted assertion attempts to state is that the seventy-year period allegedly ended when the Jews returned in 537 B.C.E. and not when Babylon fell in 539 B.C.E.; that the Jews’ return had not happened by the time Babylon fell. Well, of course it hadn’t, but more importantly, it wasn’t a requirement because the seventy years ended in 539 B.C.E., not on their return. Because their return happened two years after Persia conquered Babylon, the Dominant Babylonian Empire theory fails, they claim, because Babylon was conquered two years before their return.

    This false and distorted piece of logic begs the essential question: “When did the seventy years end?” Had they been forthcoming and actually quoted Jehovah’s word from the mouth of Jeremiah rather than force the reader to hunt for its meaning it would have been self-evident, but more importantly, it would have proven them wrong which is perhaps why they did not wish to bring it to the readers' attention in the first place.

    We can determine what Jehovah’s word was by reference to Ezra 1:1-4 and 2 Chronicles 36:22 which they quote in support of their position. And even though neither one of these verses specify what the word of Jehovah was either, the context and subject matter of these Scriptures indicates that it referres to Jehovah’s promise to return the Jews and Cyrus’ decree setting them free.

    1 And in the first year of Cyrus the king of Persia, that Jehovah’s word from the mouth of Jeremiah might be accomplished, Jehovah roused the spirit of Cyrus the king of Persia so that he caused a cry to pass through all his realm, and also in writing, saying:

    2 “This is what Cyrus the king of Persia has said, ‘All the kingdoms of the earth Jehovah the God of the heavens has given me, and he himself has commissioned me to build him a house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah. 3 Whoever there is among YOU of all his people, may his God prove to be with him. So let him go up to Jerusalem, which is in Judah, and rebuild the house of Jehovah the God of Israel—he is the [true] God—which was in Jerusalem. 4 As for anyone that is left from all the places where he is residing as an alien, let the men of his place assist him with silver and with gold and with goods and with domestic animals along with the voluntary offering for the house of the [true] God, which was in Jerusalem.’”(Ezra 1:1-4 see also 2 Chronicles 36:22,23).

    Jehovah’s word related to the return of the Jews and is found at Jeremiah 29:10. But only after the seventy years had ended would he turn his attention to returning the Jews.

    10 “For this is what Jehovah has said, ‘In accord with the fulfilling of seventy years at Babylon I shall turn my attention to YOU people, and I will establish toward YOU my good word in bringing YOU back to this place.’

    This, in actuality, is unimpeachable evidence that the seventy years of servitude came to an end first in 539 B.C.E. and only later, in 537 B.C.E. would the Jews return. Accordingly, it is not necessary or even possible that the ‘return’ occur before Babylon fell and the seventy years ended. Even with their improper rendering that the seventy years would be accomplished at Babylon, the Jehovah’s Witnesses' Return theory lacks merit. Jeremiah 29:10 supports the Dominant Babylonian Empire theory and disproves the Jehovah’s Witnesses' Return theory.

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro
    Scholar seems convinced that the exile ended in 537 on the exiles' return to Palestine, but that is incorrect. Accordingly, the JWs' Return theory falls short of 70 years.

    The JW's theory is, of course, quite wrong, for many reasons. However, scholars generally accept 538 as the year the Jews returned (not 537), and this is supported by Josephus and the Bible.

    Moreover, the return of the Jews isn't directly relevant to the 70 years, which were not of 'exile', but of all the surrounding nations serving Babylon's king, which is clearly defined at Jeremiah 25:11-12 as being fulfilled before Babylon's king was 'called to account'.

    According to the biblical account (and confirmed by Josephus), 1) the seventy years ended in 539 BCE, 2) once the 70 years were fulfilled, Babylon's king was called to account in 539 1 BCE, 3) the Jews returned to Jerusalem in the seventh month (October) of Cyrus' first year 538 2 BCE, 4) the Jews began the temple foundations in the fifth month (May) of Cyrus' second year 537 BCE.

    1 The scriptures do not directly state the year 539, however the year for the fall of Babylon is not disputed.

    2 Cyrus' decree for the Jews to return to Jerusalem was likely made during his accession in Nisan (March/April), allowing over six months of travelling time. This is ample time for them to arrive in October, and no less time than that allowed for in the botched JW chronology; Ezra 7:9 indicates the trip from Babylon to Jerusalem took 4 months, allowing for several additional weeks to prepare for the trip.

  • scholarjw
    scholarjw

    great thread

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