rats Euph I would have enjoyed reading what you said
and Thanks
What "CAUSES" a molested child to hurt? (Warning: Possible Triggers)
by gumby 195 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse
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bisous
I do believe that the shame is exacerbated by societal norms. The worst norm of all, however, is that of secrecy. Abuse survivors grouw up with the sense that they are different from everyone else, that they have this dark, deep secret that they cannot talk about.
I can understand that even discussing this subject rationally would be painful for many survivors. I would be very careful of discussing this subject with Meia, for example, as much as I would like her input on it. But there are some survivors, such as Lee, who are obviously at a point in their healing where they are able to discuss such matters; and I think that it is important that they be allowed to do so, so that the rest of us can understand.
Euphemism:
Are you a victim of sexual molestation? If not, then please do not categorize those uf us who are ... rational, irrational ... or whatever other term you'll use to characterize us.
LadyLee:
Gumby's question started as based on something he saw on TV. But he then took it to another level when posing question comparing sexual molestation guilt or trauma to that of a child who stole a bicycle. And apparently from that 2nd question he has already come to a decision regarding the fact that the only reason we feel shame is because we Learned it, just as we Learned stealing is wrong. Jesus H. Christ!
(most-pedophiles being the exception) Humans are born with an innate sense of conscience and right vs. wrong....when personal boundaries are crossed we don't need anyone to tell us.
If I accepted some of the reasoning presented on this thread, I'd believe that if only we started sexual interaction early enough (say infancy?) then all this bothersome abuse stuff could be avoided.
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cyber-sista
Just a few rambling thoughts...
Apart from viewing child molesting as an emotional issue (which it is) we could also conclude that it could be a biological issue. As humans we go through many natural developmental stages of life. Some of these stages seem to be set up (genetically) as a protection to us as human beings --possibly to prevent life threatening early pregnancies, etc. Before a child reaches sexual maturity it could be that that a young child is damaged psychologically by an early sexual experience because their mental and physical bodies are not yet developed enough to be able to process that experience in a healthy way. I have seen in children, that apart from the way they are taught, they naturally seem to reach an age of modesty in regards to their bodies. They are uninhibited as children (running about naked and such) and then suddenly they become more private about their bodies
Also from a mental point of view I think it feels like a trap to the victim--it is a situation they have no control over--something forced upon them--an uninvited and unwanted invasion of their personal space.
From whatever angle you view it and for whatever reason it is child molesting is extremely damaging to self and it without therapy it seems to set most of those victims up for a lifetime struggles with unhealthy codependant relationships, depression, etc, etc...I think we have all seen that fact too many times over...
My love and sympathy goes out to any victims out there...
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Lady Lee
OK ((((HUGS)))) to those who need it. Take a deep breath
It would be wonderful if this was a simple problem with a simple answer. But humans are not simple. We are complex beings and this is a most complex problem.
There isn't one simple answer to why we are traumatized by sexual abuse more so than other things. Complex problems require complex answers. I've tried to throw as many of the answers in as I can think of and I'm sure I left some out.
Gumby's second question was:
I can't figure out WHY the trauma is SO GREAT from a child who has been molested......compared to a kid who was involved in stealing. In both cases the act is taught as WRONG......yet the trauma from a child molested........is 20 times greater than the trauma from a kid who had been caught stealing. Why is there such a great difference?
I don't see him coming to a conclusion. I see another question which I have tried to answer.
As many victims of child sexual abuse as there are in the world there are others who are deeply affected by what their partners/family/friends have gone through in the past. They struggle with the issues too - well at least the caring ones do. Thank you Euph for joining in.
Bisous yes we learned it but I think the question is HOW. Sometimes it is just "knowing". Other times it is a huge complex of things that go into making us who we are.
Sometimes it is little things that teach us a lot and alone don't seem to mean much but added with other things mean a lot
When I was 7 I was at the park with my 6 yr old brother. We were approached by a man who flashed himself at us. I don't remember if I had been warned about "dirty men in the park" but I grabbed my brother and we ran home and told our parents. I did not expect the reaction I got. My mother called the police. But my father went on a rampage. He took off in his car and went looking for the guy. He was never found. Lesson for me was that anything sexual was a terrible thing. That stuck with me. I don't recall the police talking to us. I don't recall my mother's reaction. But I sure recall my father's reaction - ballistic.
Shortly after this he started abusing me. hmmmmm Yup I knew it was bad - real bad. But that image of him jumping in the car to go kill someone for something he was now doing even worse sure stuck in my mind
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Big Tex
I haven't read through this thread, a mistake I'm sure, but I'm not in a good place with this subject right now. So what I say or how I say it may not come out right.
Gumby is a really good guy and I'll defend him six ways to Sunday. If he, or anyone else wants to know what one incident of child abuse is like here is an account of one of mine:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/9/49147/1.ashx
Realize that not every child who screams "rape" is a liar or enjoys it. Child abuse is not some sweet and sexy nymphette who prances about seducing a reluctant older man. Child abuse is dirty. It is embarassing. It is horrific. If you really want to know what "causes" a molested child to hurt, I would have to ask if you are talking physically, emotionally or spiritually. All three are affected during child abuse. I would also like point out that adult women who are raped also feel shame, anger and violation. I submit it is in the basic primal genetics of us that we do not want our bodies to be invaded without our consent.
Understand that during an act of abuse someone is using your body. You are no longer in control, he is. And while he is, he can and will do anything that pleases him. Tell me how that would not cause shame. Tell me how that would not cause anger.
One of my abusers performed oral sex on me. It felt good at the time, in that it didn't hurt. But if you really want to know the truth, memories of that causes more shame than the more violent parts of my abuse. Why? Maybe because it didn't hurt. Maybe because the lines were blurred. In an act of violent rape, it is clear. I can remember screaming and fighting, I can remember blood and the fact that I was overwhelmed is mitigated by the knowledge that I was only 4 and my attacker was a grown man. With the other, I can't say that. I didn't initiate the act, I protested, but I didn't scream. I didn't fight and there was no blood.
I believe the human mind is far more complex than some simple black-and-white people would have you believe. What we do, why we do it and how we feel about it are extremely complex and not easily identified.
Chris
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Lady Lee
BT you have a PM
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Big Tex
Thank you LL. Yes, please share if you feel safe and comfortable enough.
As you well know, it's one thing to know it cognitively, in your head, it's quite another to feel it in your gut.
Chris
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gumby
I just want to say I am so sorry I created this thread. I wish I had NEVER posted this. I have gotten a PM telling me how repulsed they were I posted this thread. My intentions were good. I never meant to imply ANYTHING bad. I only wanted to know if kids felt guilty because the act felt good and they felt guilty for it.......THAT'S IT. I wanted to know the answer. I hesitated posting this because I thought some might take it wrong but I took my chances.
LadyLee.....I'm so SORRY I made the nice butt comment. I was only teasing and didn't realise it sounded bad and that it hurt you. I would never hurt you on purpose.
Once again......I'm truely SORRY for hurting anyone......I didn't mean to. I haven't read all the comments because I was too hurt that some were offended and couldn't read anymore. I saw BigT comment at the end here. Thanks BigT. I'm not a bad guy....I just asked the wrong question I guess.
Gumby
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Lady Lee
I just read your post about the abuse (((Chris)))
The shame of my body actually enjoying some of the abuse confused me for so long. I was told that since I liked it I must have wanted it or at least my body wanted it. What confusion for a young mind. How does a child reconcile the fact that now his or her own body is betraying them. I thought it meant I was to blame.
What I didn't know then is that an adult was using his adult sexual knowledge against me to get what HE wanted. I had no idea of these things until an abuser thought he would get his jollies by using my body against me. Talk about betrayal.
It is hard enough to trust anyone else but when we think our own body is turning against us we truly feel alone and betrayed.
No child wants this kind of touch. The price for those feelings are way too high. This is actually part of what got lost on the post I tried to make. I hated my body most of my life for its betrayal. My mother accused me of wanting it when she caught us in bed. 50 years later she still blames me - and I was only 12 then.
I decided to post this to you privately first. If you think it is valuable I will post it in the thread.
Don't be so hard on yourself Chris. An adult was using what he knew against you. Just one more betrayal. But you had a normal healthy body. It was doing what it should do when touched certain ways. it wasn't your choice to BE touched that way.
(((Chris))) -
xenawarrior
(((((((((((Chris)))))))))))))) You are loved my friend
(((((Gumby)))) from one who read and knows that you didn't mean any harm here.