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by StinkyPantz 70 Replies latest jw friends

  • rem
    rem

    Double Edge,

    The big deal is that scientific studies research and data carry more weight than anecdotes. Of course there is going to be a neverending circle if one party choses to ignore evidence. This is basically how the discussion has been going:

    flatearther: the earth is flat

    skeptic: actually it is not

    flatearther: yes it is, i know it... many people know it

    skeptic: how do they know it? do they have evidence?

    flatearther: we don't need evidence... anyway you can't prove the earth isn't flat

    skeptic: well i can't prove it in the sense you might mean, but there is much evidence against a flat earth and much evidence for a spherical earth. A spherical earth is pretty much a fact.

    flatearther: oh, what... has empirical evidence become our new deity???

    skeptic: empirical evidence is the only way to discriminate between true and false ideas

    flatearther: the fact that i can think illogically gives credence to the idea that the earth can be flat. can't you at least have an open mind that the earth can be flat?

    skeptic: not unless you can provide convincing evidence for this extraordinary claim.

    flatearther: Ugh! It's always evidence, evidence, evidence with you guys!

    yada yada yada

    Actually, this is a pretty similar conversation to the one I had with the elders during my judicial committee!

    rem

  • Double Edge
    Double Edge
    Of course there is going to be a neverending circle if one party choses to ignore evidence.

    Of course that too goes for one party chosing to ignore the evidence of anothers' real experience.

    We're not talking about whether or not the earth is flat nor about elders conversations at judicial committee meetings.

    The 'big deal' isn't disputing scientific research in general, I was referring to whatever 'study' one person puts up 'proving' their claim, most likely a counter 'study' can also be made.

    I've brought this up before, but science can only deal with current knowledge. Our knowledge today of the atom was unknown to the scientists of the 1870's. Atoms existed (of course), the just couldn't be proved.

  • rem
    rem

    Double Edge,
    Of course that too goes for one party chosing to ignore the evidence of anothers' real experience

    We are not ignoring them... we recognize the experience is real to that person. But anecdotes have proven to be unreliable.
    The 'big deal' isn't disputing scientific research in general, I was referring to whatever 'study' one person puts up 'proving' their claim, most likely a counter 'study' can also be made.

    Then let them cite their scientific research. So far they haven't. Guess why? There are no reproducible scientific experiments in the field that provide any positive evidence for a spiritual realm. I've checked.

    I've brought this up before, but science can only deal with current knowledge. Our knowledge today of the atom was unknown to the scientists of the 1870's. Atoms existed (of course), the just couldn't be proved.

    But Unicorns still don't exist. Or do you think that science just doesn't have enough data to support Unicorns? I'm not sure where you are going with this analogy. There were also many other WRONG theories of matter, but the scientific method weeded them out. Not every theory is correct and to say that a spirit realm exists without evidence is just as bad as saying that all mater is made of earth, water, and fire like some ancients thought. There are many more wrong theories than correct ones.

    rem

  • hippikon
    hippikon

    ignore the evidence of anothers' real experience

    And that is the crux of the problem - Anothers experience is not reliable as the brain tends to fill in the gaps

  • Mulan
    Mulan

    I played with one when I was about 11, not knowing it was "forbidden". It said I would get married when I was 18 and that my husband's name would be David. Weird, eh? I was 17 when I got married, but it was a David.

  • Double Edge
    Double Edge

    But anecdotes have proven to be unreliable.

    That's a very broad statement. All anecdotes, most or some?

    Anothers experience is not reliable as the brain tends to fill in the gaps

    Another broad statement. A few minutes ago I logged onto my computer, then the internet and lastly this site. This was my experience, and it is TRUE. Now, tell me what gaps there are that need to be filled in in this 'anecdote'.

    Again, you're using generalizations to prove an argument that can not be proved. If all of your 'spiritual' (positive or negative) experiences are suspect as to their validity, fine, who am I to challenge what you did or did not experience, after all, I wasn't in your shoes. But by the same token, don't dismiss someone elses experience with "that can't happen" ... who are you to say it wasn't genuine?

    I will say, I do think a lot of 'spiritual' happenings are something other than real, but not ALL... I KNOW otherwise.

  • hippikon
    hippikon
    T O P I C R E V I E W

    Double Edge: For a start I dont know how much of whatyou say is the truth. There is a lot you havn't revealed so I'll fill in the gaps with my imagination if that is ok

    Oh yuch I wouldn't do that with my wife let alone the Dog !!!!!

  • rem
    rem

    Double Edge,

    There is a difference between ordinary and extraordinary claims. This claim:

    A few minutes ago I logged onto my computer, then the internet and lastly this site. This was my experience, and it is TRUE. Now, tell me what gaps there are that need to be filled in in this 'anecdote'.

    is ordinary. I don't require much evidence to believe it because it's completely plausible - no laws of physics were broken in this scenario.

    In tales of the supernatural and other such extraordinary claims, many physical laws have to be broken to account for the type of explanations that believers put forward. In such cases, mere anecdotes are not enough evidence to prove a spirit realm or alien spaceships or whatever. Here is an example:

    An experiment was done with UFO seekers. On a mountain accross from where many UFO seekers were stationed a blue light was lit for five seconds. Then the light was turned off for five seconds and turned on again for another 25 seconds. At the second lighting a buzz from a fake magnemometer went off by a plant in the crowd of UFO seekers.

    As you can imagine, this caused much excitement in the crowd. The people's accounts were collected and many additional details that did not exist were added to many of the stories. Many people claimed that the light moved (it was stationary), that it was a different color or that it was up in the air (it was on the ground on the hill), that the light was on for longer periods of time, etc. These people were not lying... they actually believed this is what they saw, though they were incorrect. The constructive nature of memory and various psychological illusions added extra details that never happened.

    Those are the type of gaps that the brain fills when we receive sensory input that is foreign to our previous experience. Science Experiments have shown that people fill the gaps with their preconceived notions of how the world is. That is why aliens tend to look like the movie aliens, and back a hundred years ago fairies were in style, and before then dragons and mermaids. People who have strong Christian beliefs tend to see angels or demons and people of other religions see their own religious saints and prophets and gods.

    This is why anecdotes of extraordinary events are not deemed reliable. More data is necessary. Unfortunately, under controlled conditions, all signs of supernatural activity vanish. After years of testing, psychological and nerological causes have been found that account for these types of occurances, and by the way, don't break any laws of physics.

    There will always be unexplained phenomenon, just as there will always be unexplained crimes. These do not provide evidence for supernatural causes. It just means that we don't always have access to all of the information.

    I've looked into a LOT of accounts of supernatural and alien phenomenon because the subject interests me and because I was once a believer. The desire to believe these stories is very strong... but I've always found that when I take the time to investigate, a more prosaic explanation becomes clear.

    rem

    Edited by - rem on 13 December 2002 1:21:14

  • hippikon
    hippikon

    Back to the subject

    This thread is now officialy demonised

    Edited by - hippikon on 13 December 2002 1:51:5

  • hippikon

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