I fall into the "curious" category. I'm almost wanting something to show up evil or good just to prove to me it's there.
Ouija Boards
by StinkyPantz 70 Replies latest jw friends
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rem
nakedmvistar,
The fact that we have the ability to override logic , and think beyond our present reality may give credence to the Idea of a "spirit" or unseen world.
Does it also give credence to Invisible Pink Unicorns, Green Gnomes, Bigfoot, the Loch Ness Monster, space aliens, leprechauns, and fairies? All of these things require faith. Many people actually believe in some of them. How do you separate the wheat and the chaff without logic and evidence? Faith is not enough to discern truth. In fact, faith is not even necessary. Logic and evidence are more than fine on their own.
If that's the case then how can you have a monopoly on truth?
I don't. But I'm sure you can agree that there are many false ideas (not every idea is true). Then how can you diferentiate between true and false ideas with only faith? You can't - it's impossible. Faith is a vestigial throwback from our primitive caveman times. It serves a purpose in helping us match patterns, but on it's own it can create crazy beliefs that have no relationship with reality.
Only with evidence and logic can you winnow down all of the false ideas and confirm true ones. I can't prove that there is no god, and I don't have to. The claim that there is a god and a spirit realm is a positive claim. The person making the positive claim has the burden of proof. There is no reason to put belief in something that has little to no evidentiary backing.
If I told you that Invisible Pink Unicorns do indeed exist inside my head you could never prove me wrong. But you still wouldn't be expected to believe it unless I could provide convincing evidence of said Invisible Pink Unicorns. It's impossible to prove a negative, so the burden of proof would be on me. This is also known as an 'irrefutable hypothesis'.
Again. how can you measure a spirit? It's like trying to prove the existence of emotion to a sociopath.....He may understand the definiton but he will never understand it until he EXPERIENCES emotions for himself. Until then it's just a theory to him
And yet it would be a theory with evidence. He would not have to experience emotion himself to realize that it is a real phenominon in most people because we actually can measure emotional response. So far, spirits (or the effects of spirits) have not been observed or measured. In fact, plausible theories (with backing evidence) in psychology have provided convincing explanations for such "spiritual" experiences.
Faith is the ultimate irrefutable hypothesis.
rem
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LyinEyes
Ballistic, my thoughts exactly. If I found proff that there is a spirit world really out there, it may open my mind to really put faith in God again, or at least a higher power, or something.
This would be something that only I would be able to put faith in, I know my level of sanity and I know when I would be seeing things and when it could be a dream. I really tell you one time, I heard a voice that was my dad's and I was fully awake, I heard the door open and close, and I know for a fact that this happened. I was not even laying down resting, I wasnt on drugs, or drinking. I wasnt watching demonized movies, or anything like that. I can't explain it to this day. But , only I can tell you that I was not imagining it or that I had lost my mind. I don't think it was evil thou.
Never again will I take anyones word for anything again, after being told by JW what is truth and what is not. They lied , and they are just men, what gives them superior knowledge over me to tell me what is real and not?
For me to believe ever again , anything,,I will have to see it to believe it. I will believe that someone eles believes , if they tell me so and I know them well enough to know they are not crazy,,lol.
I am not sure where I stand on believing anymore,,,,,,,,, things that happened were so long ago, I am ready to see or hear some new signs.
To say there is no creator, or God, or that there is , for that matter,,,,,,, is presuming to think to much of your own knowledge. To say you THINK or you BELIEVE,,,,,, is more realistic to say. Who can know, what is out there for sure.......and if you think you do,,,,,,, you might be wrong.
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nakedmvistar
In ancient times, little green men were considered to be demons from hell....In modern times, these same green creatures were associated with beings from outer-space.... What are we to extract from this? Are they figments of our super-subconscious? can they be from outer-space? can they be from another dimension? The most logical explanation doesn't always tell the whole story. What if they turned out to be from outer space. Why would that be more plausible than beings from another dimension? Why? Some things cannot always be explained with the tools available to us. Can there be a compromise....A middle ground that we can come to? Or has empirical data become our new DEITY....It's interesting that for all our protests, we eventually end up placing our FAITH in something or someone---concrete, abstract or otherwise.
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donkey
so are you saying everyone is lying about their experiences?
Does someone tripping out on LSD lie about what they saw?
Does a schizo lie about the voices he hears?
The answer to both is no.
Does make the voices or the trip-sites REAL? No
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rem
Can there be a compromise....A middle ground that we can come to?
The rational (and I believe reasonable) approach is Ockham's Razor: "entities should not be multiplied needlessly". Stick to the more simple explanation. Experience shows that they are more probably correct. Adding unknown "spirits" and "forces" to a theory only makes it more complex and does not add any more evidence.
When there is not enough data to come to a firm conclusion, simply say we don't know.... but stick to the evidence. Don't cling to far-out theories that continue to have no evidentiary backing even after much research.
Researchers have been studying psi pehenomena for over 100 years, and still there is not one stitch of evidence. After a while it's time to throw in the towel and look for a better theory. Fortunately, many better theories that actually fit observation have been found. Has everything been explained? Nope... but clinging to an irrational belief is just another 'god of the gaps' argument. It's hope and faith that is not based on reality and it doesn't help us progress as a species.
Or has empirical data become our new DEITY
Do you know of another reliable way to test claims?
rem
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hippikon
Double Edge
so are you saying everyone is lying about their experiences?
Did you read the links, have you done any research at all I thought not
I can understand why people only listen to what they want to but cant understand why they want to believe this shit. Perhaps its an "I have secret powers you dont" trip or "I know secret stuff that you dont" fantasy.
Nakedmvistar
This all has an effect on how you perceive reality and your place in it.
Faith has a way of filling in the gaps
You yourself said it
the absence of "PROOF" of a spiritual world does not necessarily negate it's existence
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Just because you cannot conceive of or have evidence for an alternate reality does not invalidate its existence.
But in the same vein the absence of answers to things you dont understand doesnt mean you have to invent them
Come on dude Start living in the real world Santa dont exist, the tooth ferry dont exist fairies, pixies, Demons and angels dont exist. Bigfoot and aliens probably dont exist but Ill keep an open mind on that. If you can show me something tangible to the contrary Ill be all ears.
Rem
Dont you slander my pink unicorns
the ideomotor effect
The ideomotor effect refers to the influence of suggestion on involuntary and unconscious motor behavior. The term "ideomotor action" was coined by William B. Carpenter in 1852 in his explanation for the movements of rods and pendulums by dowsers, and some table turning or lifting by spirit mediums (the ones that weren't accomplished by cheating). Carpenter argued that muscular movement can be initiated by the mind independently of volition or emotions. We may not be aware of it, but suggestions can be made to the mind by others or by observations. Those suggestions can influence the mind and affect motor behavior.
Scientific tests by American psychologist William James, French chemist Michel Chevreul, English scientist Michael Faraday, and American psychologist Ray Hyman have demonstrated that many phenomena attributed to spiritual or paranormal forces, or to mysterious "energies," are actually due to ideomotor action. Furthermore, these tests demonstrate that "honest, intelligent people can unconsciously engage in muscular activity that is consistent with their expectations" (Hyman 1999). They also show that suggestions that can guide behavior can be given by subtle clues (Hyman 1977).
The movement of pointers on Ouija boards, of a facilitator's hands in facilitated communication, of hands and arms in applied kinesiology, and of some behaviors attributed to hypnotic suggestion, are due to ideomotor action. Ray Hyman (1999) has demonstrated the seductive influence of ideomotor action on medical quackery, where it has produced such appliances as the "Toftness Radiation Detector" (used by chiropractors) and "black boxes" used in medical radiesthesia and radionics (popular with naturopaths to harness "energy" used in diagnosis and healing.) Hyman also argues that such things as Qi Gong and "pulse diagnosis," popular in both Traditional Chinese Medicine and Ayurvedic medicine as practiced by Deepak Chopra, are best explained in terms of ideomotor action and require no supposition of mysterious energies such as chi.
See related entries on cold reading and spiritism.
further reading
- "The Mischief-Making of Ideomotor Action," by Ray Hyman (This article appeared in the Scientific Review of Alternative Medicine 3(2):34-43, 1999.)
- Guide to Cold Readingby Ray Hyman
Hyman, Ray. "'Cold Reading': How to Convince Strangers That You Know All About Them," The Skeptical Inquirer Spring/Summer 1977.
Edited by - hippikon on 11 December 2002 21:43:52
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Mac
Beware of Captain Howdy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
mac
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nakedmvistar
I'm reminded of a Star trek the next generation episode in which a little boy suffered extreme trauma when he lost his parents in some accident. Instead of dealing with the pain associated with his loss, he simply took favor with the Character of DATA the android who felt no emotion. He simply mimicked the behaviour of this ultra logical android....there was no need to experience pain if he pretended to be like him---a computer. I see this alot with people who been hurt and betrayed while in a religion. They throw out their belief in God and replace it something more tangible and concrete. The tend focus the rest of their energy on disproving this "Illogical pie in the sky" belief in an all powerful deity. It helps them understand...gives them perspective. But does extreme logic and it's analytical components give us a reason NOT to believe? Or is it deep pain and despair that fuel this view....This forum is filled with people who suffered greatly. But is that ultimately a viable excuse to throw away your personal faith in a God?
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expatbrit
People don't need a reason not to believe. Lack of belief is the default state, otherwise you would believe in everything.
It is the reason to believe that is necessary.
Expatbrit