THE DILEMMA FACING APOSTATES

by You Know 134 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Quotes

  You Know quipped:

  Obviously apostate dubs at one time did believe that there was a solid foundation of our faith otherwise you wouldn't have spent those many years trying to convince others that you had the truth.

  Speaking personally, that is true. I only wish I had known what I know now much, much sooner in life. If only someone had told me the facts, facts which You Know does not deny buy simply attempts to justify and brush aside. Obviously, this knowledge does not bother You Know, and that is fine, that is Bobbie's decision.

  But surely there can be nothing wrong with telling the truth and stating facts. Taking only one recent example, the Society was registered as an NGO. You can't change that fact. You can spin-doctor it all you want; you can call the fact unimportant and attempt to minimize significance. Again that is your opinion. But in my opinion that fact is very significant, and if I had learned about it when it first happened in the early 1990s I would probably have avoided much pain and heartache later in my life.

  Remember, we are counselled to know "both sides" of the arguement -- even the Watchtower teaches this. That is why I made my web page (http://quotes.jehovahswitnesses.com) -- to let the society's own words speak; I let the reader use discernment.

  The way I look at is by this analogy: I don't believe in Santa Claus any more. You Know (and the rest of his creed) still does believe in Santa Claus. You can question my motives, my ethics, call me evil for wanting to take away Xmas from the kids and spoil Christmas. But that does not make Santa Claus any more real. Ultimately there is no Jolly Fat Man delivering presents, it was just a cute story for young kids. You Know is like a kid I once knew who was desperately trying to convince me that Santa Claus is real, she had seen him, and she knows it wasn't her dad because her dad and mom were with her peeking into the living room watching Santa do his work.

  It was cute when that fellow 4th grader was so sincere and wanted to convince the rest of us, her classmates. But she just couldn't understand that we all knew, in a way that she had not yet come to grips with, that there is no Santa Claus.

  In summary, since prior belief in Santa Claus in insignificant when analysing current disbelief in Santa, so too your point (quoted at the top of my post) is moot.

  And if you don't think we should make known simple facts about your religion, You Know, I remind you that our ability to discuss and preach religion is constitutionally guarnateed... thanks to JWs, that law is pretty clearly established. Again, THANK YOU for making our work possible. Who knows, maybe I should start wearing a sandwhich-board sign that reads "Religion is a snare and a racket" and parade in front of your KH. After all, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, yes?

  Edited by - Quotes on 17 July 2002 23:59:58
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  You Know

  Caballo Sentado

  I have spent some months reading your posts & not answering any, but I DO want to answer this. Neo Madman gave you an excelent reason for not believing WT allegations, but you dodge the question, is that the way you reason?, that is faulty reasoning.

  I don't think I dodged the question. I posed the question, "Were you that stupid all those years you were in the truth?" It is a reasonable question I think. And, apparently the answer for some of you is yes. So, my next question is, if you were that stupid then, what makes you trust your own judgment on matters now? From my standpoint, then, those who have left the truth are the ones with the credibility problem, not those who remain.

  That kind of answers are only satisfactory in YOUR mind, you HAVE TO PROVE that there is connection between the WT & God... THEN we believe you.

  Again, I would bring the issue back to those who were in the truth for many years. Were you so completely blinded? Did you never have any personal connection to Jehovah God the whole time you were one of Jehovah's Witnesses? Many of you spent years preaching and convincing others that we had the truth. Yet, now you say there is no evidence? That is preposterous. I don't think any of you are being honest with yourselves. I can defend my faith on any topic of your choosing using the Bible and the Bible only. Why can't you do that?

  Besides, when you were in the truth did you never experince the flow of God's holy spirit? If not, that would explain your disbelief? Let's face it, not all of Jehovah's Witnesses have a personal relationship with Jehovah, but many do. Those who do are in the truth. And the Watchtower has served as an instrumentality by introducing us to God and Christ. That's all the Watchtower is really supposed to do. Everything else is just chaff as far as I am concerned. The Watchtower has provided the doctrinal basis for that relationship, that have clearly set the vital issues before us, but it is up to each individual to "prove to themselves the good, and acceptable, and perfect will of God." No one can do that for you, you must do it for yourself as an act of will.

  You say "It is more reasonable to believe that you are faithless", I DO have faith in God...please be reasonable & give Neo Madman a satisfactory answer, not for your mind, but for all the minds that are reading your posts. If this language was my native one, I could have a better argument with you...

  I think you have allowed yourself to be stumbled by the failings of the Watchtower. That's a shame. My heart goes out to you. And I think the brothers at Bethel have a lot to answer to God about. But, I have tried my best to try and snatch those who can be saved out of the fires of doubt. But, let's face it: Most of those who have left couldn't care any less about Jehovah or the future that he has promised. Many of you are immoral and love living for the moment in the Devil's world. For those like yourself who seem to want answers but who just can't seem to sort it out, I think your best shot at getting these issues sorted out will be during the tribulation. As long as you don't go completely berserk before then I think it is possible that some of you might be able to come to your senses when Jehovah rocks the heavens and the earth in preparation for gather his "desirable thigs." / You Know
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  Room 215

  Robert,

  This is to caution you against tarring everyone who participates here with the same brush. As in all divisions of society at large, soci-economic, ethnic, gender, ets. there are often as many who diverge from whatever stereotype is established for their group as those who conform to it.

  Thus, for every poster who for reasons of his own chooses to thumb his/her nose at the Watchtower and chafed painfully under it autocratic ``sit down, shut up and listen or else'' mantra, there are those whose expulsion followed a torturous path of basic loyalty while seeking forums in which to constructively address misgivings.... for these Savanarolas, it wasn't enough for us to admit to acceptance of say 80-85 percent of JW dogma while admitting to misgivings about the reamin 15 percent or so. No matter who respectfully we posed our questions or how discreetly we made our inquiries, too many of us once loyal dissidents were marked and then ultimately kicked out. What sort of authority equates dissent or doubting with disloyalty?

  You must know that you've uttered more than enough in your statement on this board to get you bounced out in all but the most tolerant, liberal congregations. What does that make you? Uncomfortably, perhaps, a lot like many of your fellow posters here.
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  ugg

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  caballoSentado

  You know,

  You DO doged the question... simple like that. You did not answer, you posed another question. I do not believe that what you did is answering the question. As for being a JW for many years, I tell this to you: THEY DID NOT GIVE ME ALL THE INFORMATION o I did not make a thourough investigation. I was 16 years old!. I did not know about all the failed profecies (I have all Russell's books now), I did not know about the Rutherford's letter to Hitler. I know now about the mexican affair. I did not know the history of this organization. If I had known I would have not been converted. I understand now why the branch here made me smuggle things for them into my country & they asked me not to say anything to anybody (I saw with my own eyes while they paid a bribe to a person in the customs). So do not tell me that I have to accept this organization as being from God. It it out of love for God that I have taken this position. I am only grateful to them because they gave me some more knowledge of God & a desire to serve him... truth is TRUTH, no an illusion my friend.

  Have a good day
  Caballo
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  You Know

  You DO doged the question... simple like that. You did not answer, you posed another question.

  Call it what you will. Jesus often refused to answer baited questions and instead turned the tables and asked his interrogators questions that they refused to answer because it would incriminate them. I try to follow the Master's lead in that respect.

  THEY DID NOT GIVE ME ALL THE INFORMATION o I did not make a thourough investigation. I was 16 years old!.

  Ahh, so that used trickery on you huh? That's exactly what the Corinthian brothers accused Paul of doing with them, the reason they felt that way is because they were under the evil influence of the superfine apostles, whom Paul said were agents of the Devil functioning within the congregation. That's why Paul wrote them and said: "Nervertheless, you say, I was "crafty" and I caught you by "trickery." You similarly have been brought under the evil influence of the cult of Ray Franz, and as my post points out you are ill-equipped to deal with the deep things that he has brought to bear against the brothers. The point is that the dynamics of the truth have not changed. If anointed Christians in the 1st century, that had all the outward manifestations of the spirit, could be seduced by the Devil's agents into believing that Paul was a fraud how much more easily can the Governing Body be made to appear as evil men who have misled people by trickery? Paul also noted that they were victorious "through bad report and good report; as deceivers and yet truthful, as being unknown and yet being recognized, as dying and yet, look! we live, as disciplined and yet not delivered to death..." Accordingly, we today may be made to appear as decievers, and yet still be true to our claim of being Jehovah's possession.

  I did not know the history of this organization. If I had known I would have not been converted.

  Well, that's why the Society would rather you not know about those things. Like I said, you have been stumbled. Take the example of the Jewish nation. Was it Jehovah's organization? According to God it was his special possession out of all the nations. Did the Jewish kings and priests commit numerous acts of unfaithfulness against God? Yes, you know that that is true. The Bible is full of their follies. But, did they at any point stop being Jehovah's people? No. Up until Jehovah dissolved his relationship with them after Christ instituted the spiritual Israel the fleshly Jews were still God's people. So, your reasoning is just not sound. / You Know
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  dubla

  yk-

  i see youve ignored the comments i and others have made about your obviously faulty logic. heres some more:

  And, apparently the answer for some of you is yes. So, my next question is, if you were that stupid then, what makes you trust your own judgment on matters now?

  again, this can be said of anyone leaving any religion. if the ex-amish man who joins the jws was THAT stupid to believe wholeheartedly that the amish had the one and only true religion....why should he trust his own judgement on matters now? dont you see this type of logic doesnt work as any sort of "proof" or even argument that the jws have the "truth"? your questions are entirely pointless and have no bearing on the discussion at hand.

  I don't think I dodged the question. I posed the question,

  i realize youve already responded to what im about to say, but i think its worth repeating despite your little "jesus" example. answering a question with a question IS dodging, no matter how you cut it or justify it. you do this often, and regardless of the supposed reasons you give, such as following your "master", the bottom line is obvious: there are many questions posed to you that you simply cannot answer intelligently, period.

  Again, I would bring the issue back to those who were in the truth for many years. Were you so completely blinded? Did you never have any personal connection to Jehovah God the whole time you were one of Jehovah's Witnesses? Many of you spent years preaching and convincing others that we had the truth. Yet, now you say there is no evidence? That is preposterous.

  again, garbage logic. ive spent hours being preached to (when i used to work in a factory) by amish men who were convinced they had "the truth". they claimed to have very personal relationships with god the whole time they were amish. ive known amish men (an example ive already used) who have then fallen away and become "apostates" to current amish. were they so completely blinded? now they say there is no evidence that the amish have the one true religion? that is preposterous, isnt it?

  You similarly have been brought under the evil influence of the cult of Ray Franz,

  you have no more reasonable basis for this statement then we have when we say that you are under the evil influence of the cult of the judge (or russell, more appropriately). in actuality we have much more of a basis for this argument, as the wt has proven itself to be a false prophet.

  Well, that's why the Society would rather you not know about those things.

  its painful to watch someone contradict his own statements as often as you do. on one had you stated that someone who didnt know the history of the organization must certainly be "the most pathetically mentally challenged individual", and in the very next breath you admit that someone who didnt know the history of the organization was indeed intentionally kept in the dark by the society. as painful as it is sometimes to watch you display your ignorance/deceit (you choose), at least is serves a purpose: even your "target audience" and the lurkers can surely see your obvious contradictions and faulty logic.

  aa

  Edited by - dubla on 18 July 2002 10:46:53
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  You Know

  i see youve ignored the comments i and others have made about your obviously faulty logic. heres some more:

  I can't allow one poster to monoploize all of my attention. I've got to spread the love around. / You Know
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  dubla

  I can't allow one poster to monoploize all of my attention. I've got to spread the love around. / You Know

  well, i kind of expected that type of response from you (im reading your mind!), which is why i pre-qualified the statement by adding "and others...". btw, aside from what you may think, it doesnt bother me when you ignore the points i make about your logic holes and contradictions.......non-rebuttal only reinforces what i put on the table for the lurkers.

  aa