and this has what to do with the topic at hand??
Anyone heard of Watchtower policy change concerning pedophiles
by Robert_V_Frazier 203 Replies latest watchtower scandals
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dinah
This seems to be to address the fact that various ones have been growing up™ without much attention to the youths making the Truth™ their own.
Thanks for the vomit in my mouth, Spike.
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Big Tex
Back on topic.
Scully quotes an excellent scripture that really does apply to child abuse:
In my letter I wrote YOU to quit mixing in company with fornicators, not [meaning] entirely with the fornicators of this world or the greedy persons and extortioners and idolaters. Otherwise, YOU would actually have to get out of the world. But now I am writing YOU to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do YOU not judge those inside, while God judges those outside? "Remove the wicked [man] from among yourselves."
Why do Jehovah's Witnesses not remove a convicted felon? Surely child abuse, by nearly any definition, could be described as "wicked". Why do Jehovah's Witnesses not remove the wicked from their midst?
All because the poor child has the misfortune of not having 2 baptized Jehovah's Witnesses acting as eyewitnesses whilst they were being raped.
Insanity.
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Pistoff
I could be wrong, is it that the conviction itself works as enough to get the df? I know this happenned in the one pedophile witness case I had knowledge of in 25 years I was a witness originally. the Only witness was the daughter but he got a prison sentence through the police that were informed and got df'd after conviction.
Once again Reniaa: PROVE YOUR STATEMENT. And why did you never respond about the Paul Berry case? Paul Berry was convicted, not disfellowshiped.
Prove your case, explain the WT's position, or shut up.
To repeat the LIES you do about the WT position on child abuse is sickening, and says to me that you are OK with the policy.
The WT leadership is on record saying they will not change for any man, and that 2 witnesses is a reasonable position to take. They also feel that if a woman does not scream during rape, that she could be charged with fornication. This is a policy the Taliban LOVES.
WAKE the f**k up.
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besty
Why do Jehovah's Witnesses not remove a convicted felon?
Because its a spiritual sin which can be remedied by counselling apparently. (The only sin which counsel can't help with is disagreeing with the leadership.)
From the Charities Commision investigation:
14. Mr Porter pleaded guilty to 25 counts of indecent assault and gross indecency on young persons at Bristol Crown Court in August 2007 and received a sentence of three-year community rehabilitation order, a ban from working with under-18s and a requirement to attend a sex offender programme. He was also placed on the sex offenders register. However, the Attorney General referred the case under the Unduly Lenient Sentence Scheme to the Court of Appeal and Mr Porter subsequently received an eighteen months custodial sentence.
15. Prior to this custodial sentence, the Charity told the Commission that Mr Porter had been accepted for counselling through the church and remained a member of the congregation. Following this the individual moved area and is no-longer a member of the congregation. The congregation nearest to him has been informed of the history and has put in place supervision measures.
My questions to george11 and sola scriptura remain unanswered - I hope they come back.
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Big Tex
I hope they come back
Believe it or not, so do I .
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Sola Scriptura
To Big Tex:
I'm so sorry to hear how those Elders Gone Wild and that C.O. Gone Wild treated you. If they threatened to DF you for going to the police, they went against not only the GB's specific directions, but also against basic christian principles and basic human decency.
you said:Nowhere in the Bible does Jehovah God demand a child present 2 or 3 or 100 eyewitness to prove they were raped. Show me one scripture that says so.
Your right. There is no scripture specifically stating that. But neither is their a specific scripture for every other possible crime or sin that can happen. The "2 witness" rule is a repeated principle, in both the Mosaic Law and Christianity, that is meant to cover ALL accusations of crime & sin not specifically mentioned in scripture.
you said:I have never heard, even once, that two complaints by separate victims are sufficient for a judicial committee.
Yep it's TrueI was told these 2 eyewitnesses must be baptized Jehovah's Witnesses
Not TrueWhy does the 2 witness rule apply only to child abuse?
The "2 witness" rule applies to ALL unsubstantiated accusations of any kind in the JW congregation.
Notice what the JW elder guide book says (originally written in 1977, not long after the Elder arrangement was started, with periodic revisions in 1979, 1981 & 1991) on page 118, on what must be considered before any judicial committee can be formed for any reason:
"The committee should not take action against a person unless the evidence clearly proves this necessary.
Failure to appear before the committee is not in itself proof of guilt.
What kind of evidence is acceptable?
There must be two or three eyewitnesses, not just persons repeating what they have heard: no action can be taken if there is only one witness.
Confession (admission of wrongdoing), either written or oral, may be accepted as conclusive proof without corroborating evidence.
Strong circumstantial evidence, such as pregnancy... is acceptable
The testimony of youths may be considered...
The testimony of unbelievers may also be considered...
If there are two or three witnesses to the same kind of wrongdoing but each one is witness to a separate incident, their testimony can be considered."
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The GB can't make Elders & C.O.s follow all the directions outlined in their guide book. And I don't want the GB to obtain additional Gestapo like power to enforce their guidelines for the Elders to follow.Paul constantly struggled with wayward Elders Gone Wild in his day. Many people where hurt both emotionally & physically by their actions. God for the most part did not directly intervene to stop those wayward Elders (except for the resolution of the circumcision issue after many years). But what God did do, was to inspire Paul to inform the common people via his letters on how All Christians (Elder and Non-Elder) should behave, therefore making wayward Elders accountable, in the eyes of the people, for their actions.
Trust me knowledge is power! Look what Martin Luther did with simple Bible knowledge.
I personally believe & hope the JW "2 witness policy" controversy will be dead in a few years.
Why?
Because the GB has gone on record to the press and to rank & file JWs to say, that it's "OK"
to go to the Police 1st. The Elders 2nd.
I constantly look for opportunities, to educate all JW parents I come in contact with, of this public fact. Soon any wayward Elder or CO who dares try to imply to JW parents they will be disfellowshipped for going to the police will be laughed at and ignored because knowledge is power!
You said:They simply transferred the offender to new territory.Inconsistent? Not at all. At least the Catholics did not...
I know you are hurting, (I can not imagine the pain you must of suffered because I did not walk a mile in your shoes), but please don't try to defend the Catholic Church old policy of handling child abuse.
No offense to Catholics here, (I applaud the Catholic Church's reform of their old policy). But you can't get any more evil than their old policy, which was :
1) Find out via confession or other credible evidence, that one of your Church Leaders is a Active Child Molester
2) Give him some "counseling"
3) Transfer him to another Parish with the same Title, because you think he is now reformed
4) He does it again
5) repeat steps 2-4 until he dies, retires or gets put in jail.
That is the epitome of an Evil Policy. That is the bench mark for how corrupt a church policy can get. Most Non-EXJWs I talk to, admit the imperfect JW Policy doesn't come close to that. So please don't defend the old Catholic Churches policy for any reason. (Old Policy Bad. New Policy better)
you said:Why not let the elders wait, let the police and the courts make the determination? Meanwhile... providing spiritual comfort?
This is a contradiction. If the Elders are to wait, (sometimes months for a conviction), for the courts to decide who's telling the truth, then who are they to comfort. The Accuser or the Alleged Perpetrator?
In most modern day countries the Defendant is suppose to be innocent until proven guilty. Not the other way around.
Please don't get the feeling I think most Children lie about Molestation, on the contrary I personally believe that most children tell the truth about molestation. But there has been, although rare, where a person has been falsely accused of child molestation. (I personally know of such a case, It was emotionally devastating).
In principle, I believe it is wrong for Anyone accused of Anything by 1 person's verbal testimony alone (Adult or Child), to be considered automatically guilty.
Unfortunately, this principle which in turn protects all of us from unsubstantiated accusations, unfairly disadvantages children.
That's why I always tell JWs go to the Police 1st. The Elders 2nd. (Let Caesar deal with the crime. Let Elders deal with the sin.) Even the GB recognizes this right of the Parent as stated in the official letter from the GB to all elders stated earlier.
Big Tex, I ask you this respectfully:
Why didn't your mother go to the Police directly?
Did the Elders specifically say to her that she would be disfellowshipped if she did?
Why didn't your Non-JW grandmother and aunt go to the Police? They shouldn't of been afraid of those JW Elders Gone Wild.
Take Care Big Tex,-----------------
Sola Scriptura
"A simple layman armed with Scripture is greater than the mightiest pope without it"
-Martin Luther -
Sola Scriptura
To besty:
You said:Interesting choice of username for someone who appears to be defending a magisterium controlled religion.
Actually it's a perfect choice. Martin Luther initially wanted reform of the church, not separation from the church. There were MANY core church doctrines he agreed with that he would defend to the death.
You said:When will Jehovah's Witnesses stop treating child abuse as a sin and start treating it as a crime?
It is both a Crime & a Sin! That's why my motto to fellow JWs is:
"Let Caesar deal with the crime. Let Elders deal with the sin"
george11 touched on this earlier when he posted this:
"A 2002 letter to the elders made it quite clear:
"Child abuse is a crime. Never suggest to anyone that they should not report an allegation of child abuse to the police or other authorities. If you are asked, make it clear that whether to report the matter to the authorities or not is a personal decision for each individual to make and that there are no congregation sanctions for either decision. That is, no elder will criticize anyone who reports such an allegation to the authorities.""
You said:Jehovah's Witnesses do not neccesarily disfellowship convicted child abusers.
No they don't.
The bible advises to disfellowship only unrepeant sinners (even though the term "repentant" is open to much interpretation in the JW world. Ah, but I digress). So no, it is not always automatic. But I guarantee he got "publicly reproved" which is currently the minimum someone can get for child molestation.
What I don't understand is that most people on this board adamantly disagree with JW's disfellowshipping policy, (which I admit is not perfect), but most want Child Molesters to be automatically disfellowshipped even on the accusation of only 1 person. That to me is a contradiction.
So is disfellowshipping wrong or just right for Child Molesters only? (warning! that was a retorical question... I don't want to hijake this tread to start a topic on the unloving evils of disfellowshipping.)Pedophiles have been around for thousands of years. (The Greeks thought it was acceptable for an underage boy to have a sexually relationship with an adult mentor). Today Pedophiles have infiltrated every organization on earth that has an abundance of trusting children. (Religion, Schools, Boy scouts etc).This is not a new modern problem. It is an age old problem that modern society is finally trying to eliminate like slavery, abuse of women & torture.
Take Care besty,
P.S.,
Sorry I haven't responded to everyone. This is not the only discussion board I frequent, so I just don't have the time to respond to all. But I do read all of the comments. Thanks for understanding.
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Sola Scriptura
"A simple layman armed with Scripture is greater than the mightiest pope without it"
-Martin Luther -
flipper
SOLAR SCRIPTURA- Caesar CAN'T deal with crimes against JW children if idiot elders don't REPORT the offenses to authorities ! And I believe God put the superior authorities in place to execute vengence on wrongdoers - correct ? ( Romans 13 : 1,2 ) So " he's who takes a stand against the authorities is taking a stand against God " - right ? So by the elders and WT societies " sin of omission " by NOT reporting child molesters to authorities - they prevent God's executioners ( Caesar's law authorities ) from doing their job- it's that simple.
And so WHY doesn't the WT society report it FIRST to police ? Because they want to maintain an illusion of respectability to the public - like all other mind control cults and religions, i.e., Mormons, Scientologists, Moonies, etc. You should go read Romans 13 : 1,2 to the elders and see what they tell you. The WT society just doesn't want their dirty laundry exposed is all it is. Period. Their image is more important than the sexual safety of small children
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Sola Scriptura
To Flipper:
You said:
Caesar CAN'T deal with crimes against JW children if idiot elders don't REPORT the offenses to authorities !
They can if the parents report it. Parents not Elders are the primary ones responsible for their children's wellfare.
by NOT reporting child molesters to authorities - they prevent God's executioners ( Caesar's law authorities ) from doing their job- it's that simple.
How so, if the law in their state doesn't require them to report an unsubstantitiated accusation. You would have a point if the Elders witnessed the crime and did nothing. They are only hearing about the crime 2nd hand. Get people in those unreporting states to make it a law, then you will have what you ask.
And so WHY doesn't the WT society report it FIRST to police ? Because they want to maintain an illusion of respectability to the public
The WT society just doesn't want their dirty laundry exposed is all it is. Period.
Isn't that the case with most sexually crimes (rape, incest, child molestation). The victim and those close to victim all to often don't want their case to be exposed to the public (even though they did nothing wrong), that's why sex crimes are vastly under reported (Sad but true stats) in & outside the JW world. Don't always blame the Elders for not doing what many parents won't do.