I'm so sorry to hear how those Elders Gone Wild and that C.O. Gone Wild treated you. If they threatened to DF you for going to the police, they went against not only the GB's specific directions, but also against basic christian principles and basic human decency.
Thank you for saying that. I appreciate the empathy and respect. I will try to do the same for you. I have a feeling that we will end up agreeing to disagree, but this is a discussion board so let's have a discussion.
BTW, so you know where I am coming from, and at the risk of being a narcissist, I started studying when I was 9 years old (1971). A year before my parents finally began. The dear elderly woman who studied with me sat on the floor and literally studied the Bible, never once using the Society's publications. I was put in charge of territory assignments at 14, unofficial magazine servant at 15, in charge of sound at 16 and the Ministry School at 18. Finally at 20 I was officially made MS. I gave up a full scholarship to pioneer where I met my wife (still married after 26 years). I truly believed with all my heart. I was very aware of imperfect men, as I saw elders' sons fornicate, smoke joints and even (or so I was told by one) an orgy while parents were gone and all of them skated scot free.
But as I've said for 7+ years on this board, many, maybe most, people do not leave that sect until something very personal touches them and they find their own reason to leave. This topic happens to be my reason. And as strongly as I believed in The Truth before, even more do I believe that this rule is evil. To my poor simple mind, where there is evil, then the god of love spoken in the Bible will not be. I have seen and heard horrific stories of evil run amok in your religion and no attempt whatsoever has been made, or will ever be made, to make it right.
At some point, don't we move beyond the "imperfect men" excuse? When the errors become so egregious and happen so often, at what point do we look at the entire organization rather than the individual? During the reign of the bad kings, was every single Isrealite worshiping false gods? And yet Jehovah himself called his inspired organization corrupt, evil, wicked and apostate. If that happened then, why can it not happen now, when there are no prophets, no miracles, no temple, no Ark of the Covenent?
you said:
Nowhere in the Bible does Jehovah God demand a child present 2 or 3 or 100 eyewitness to prove they were raped. Show me one scripture that says so.
Your right. There is no scripture specifically stating that. But neither is their a specific scripture for every other possible crime or sin that can happen. The "2 witness" rule is a repeated principle, in both the Mosaic Law and Christianity, that is meant to cover ALL accusations of crime & sin not specifically mentioned in scripture.
Thank for you agreeing with me. I appreciate your honesty. So Jehovah's Witnesses' demand that a child must present 2 eyewitnesses is not based on scripture, but on principle. Forgive me, but that is a big difference.
If I were to look at principle, I would think of Jesus' words when he said a man would be better off with a millstone tied around his neck and thrown into the sea rather than harm one of these innocent ones (children). If we were to talk about principle, surely this indicates Jehovah's feelings? To the best of my knowledge, this is the closest the Bible comes to addressing child abuse. And we see how emphatic Jesus himself is, how contemptuous and how disgusted Jehovah is toward the offender. If we were to discuss principle surely this indicates where the focus of his one true organization should be -- toward one of these innocent ones, rather than playing police?
you said:
I have never heard, even once, that two complaints by separate victims are sufficient for a judicial committee.
Yep it's True
Wait a minute. I didn't think you were lying. Only incorrect. Just because you say it is true, just because the "official" rules say it is so, doesn't mean that in the actual practice, in reality, it IS so. Again I say, I have never, even once, heard of such a thing. As I said before, I am not saying it has not happened, but surely you will agree with me that you cannot say that elders have ignored what you say to be true? Are you saying that not one abuse victim has ever been trampled down by an elder body who ignored what you claim to be the official rules set down by the Society?
I was told these 2 eyewitnesses must be baptized Jehovah's Witnesses
Not True
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt, that you are not calling me a liar. I'm going to guess what you really mean is that you disagree with those 3 circuit overseers?
Still and all, they did say that. Still and all, you must agree with me that one lone publisher, standing on his own, hearing such a thing from 3 separate higher authorities carries a great deal of weight. I am forced to wonder what the organization has done to correct such rogue ideas.
The "2 witness" rule applies to ALL unsubstantiated accusations of any kind in the JW congregation.
I like that you highlighted the word "unsubstantiated". That's what this whole thing really revolves around, doesn't it? It just intrigues me, why the elders, for that matter, Jehovah's Witnesses as a whole, put unqualified, untrained, unexperienced men in charge of determining whether a child is lying. Not that the adult male is lying, but the child. I can tell you many, many stories of children brought before 3 elders alone sometimes alone and without parents allowed, and asked the most lurid questions. No such questions are asked of the accused. Indeed I can tell you stories of men who were convicted and yet still given a free pass. I can google news stories of such a thing if you don't believe me.
Why is that? Why do Jehovah's Witnesses automatically assume the child is a liar and the sexual offender cannot be guilty unless he confesses? This mindset, which if you'll forgive me, you seem to have, fascinates and frustrates me at the same time.
I can't help but feel that if the clouds parted and God himself spoke in a booming voice, it STILL wouldn't be good enough.
Didn't someone say something about the futility of straining a gnat?
Sexual assault of a child takes place in the dark, it takes place where there are no witnesses. It happens seductively, suddently, sometimes violently but always, always always always when there is only the rapist and the victim. It is essential you understand this very basic fact. Leave the Bible and everything else aside. There is an adult and there is a child. Period. No videotape. No two witnesses. There is power and there is the powerless. This is real. This is happening somewhere even as I type this.
One wishes to satisfy their own desire and use the body of another. The victim must live with the knowledge that their body was used as so much toilet paper.
I hear what you say quoting the Flock book. At one time I had a copy of it. I may have thrown it out, I can't seem to find it now. What you quote is what I remember. I've posted this a hundred times, and I'll continue to post it -- I notice that the Society uses certain legalese words such as "may be considered".
Remember the principle Jesus gave that I mentioned earlier? I find it very hard to accept that anyone that emphatic toward harming a child would then turn around and use the phrase "may be considered" when the topic is testimony that could prove the accusation. Does that not seem dangerously selective? What if there was a child raped, brutalized and traumatized, and the second witness was the child's friend? And the elders decide they may not consider that child's testimony?
Is that fair? Is that right? Is that just? Is that loving? If memory serves, the attributes of Jehovah are love, justice, wisdom and power. If the organization allows a fair, honest second witness' testimony to be ignored for whatever reason -- is that (1) loving? (2) just? (3) wise? (4) and finally is a proper use of power to protect those who cannot protect themselves?
The GB can't make Elders & C.O.s follow all the directions outlined in their guide book. And I don't want the GB to obtain additional Gestapo like power to enforce their guidelines for the Elders to follow.
Agreed.
So what procedures are in place to correct the hundreds, if not thousands, of abuse victims who have been harmed by Elders Gone Wild? I am one man. I've shared with you THREE circuit overseers who overstepped what you say is the true attitude of Jehovah's Witnesses toward child abuse. I wrote Brooklyn, and shared with them exactly what I told you. Their response took 6 months. 6 months. And it went to the wrong congregation. Long story short, I was told to "wait on Jehovah" and that the actions of the 3 circuit overseers, 9 elders, and 3 different congregations in the Dallas/Fort Worth area was "a sign we are living in the last days of this wicked system of things." End quote. I've still got the letter that was written 20 years ago.
Again I say, what does the organization do to correct this same problem that happens so many times? That they do nothing says a lot. To quote Walt Whitman -- "What you do speaks so loudly, I cannot hear what you say."
Paul constantly struggled with wayward Elders Gone Wild in his day. Many people where hurt both emotionally & physically by their actions. God for the most part did not directly intervene to stop those wayward Elders (except for the resolution of the circumcision issue after many years). But what God did do, was to inspire Paul to inform the common people via his letters on how All Christians (Elder and Non-Elder) should behave, therefore making wayward Elders accountable, in the eyes of the people, for their actions.
And what happened to that first century organization, set up by Jesus himself, and Jehovah sent apostles, prophets and miracles? It went apostate. The organization, as a whole, refused to listen to people like Paul and so Jehovah rejected it.
Again I say, look at what the organization DOES rather than it was says. Isn't this what Jehovah judges? Doesn't he look at what we do, rather than what we say?
Trust me knowledge is power! Look what Martin Luther did with simple Bible knowledge.
Yes I know. I've heard from several lurkers, who have read threads on this board and had their doubts confirmed by what they read on this board. I've had abuse victims send me PMs, after reading threads on this board. Believe me, I know how powerful knowledge is. And believe me when I say, Jehovah's Witnesses treat abuse victims in the most hideous fashion.
I constantly look for opportunities, to educate all JW parents I come in contact with, of this public fact. Soon any wayward Elder or CO who dares try to imply to JW parents they will be disfellowshipped for going to the police will be laughed at and ignored because knowledge is power!
Bless your heart. I just wish real life were that simple. I don't mean this disrespectfully, but you really don't know. Part of me is glad for you, as it means you don't know what I know. Part of me is envious.
I know you are hurting, (I can not imagine the pain you must of suffered because I did not walk a mile in your shoes), but please don't try to defend the Catholic Church old policy of handling child abuse.
I'm sorry. In no way was I trying to defend their policies toward abusive priests. My point, probably expressed badly, was to point out that at the very least the Catholic Church did not add excommunication on top what else the child has gone through. In retrospect I should have pointed out that the Catholic Church, like Jehovah's Witnesses, refused to punish sexual offenders they knew to be guilty. That might have set apart my point a little more clearly.
This is a contradiction. If the Elders are to wait, (sometimes months for a conviction), for the courts to decide who's telling the truth, then who are they to comfort. The Accuser or the Alleged Perpetrator?
In most modern day countries the Defendant is suppose to be innocent until proven guilty. Not the other way around.
Oh my. This one took a few minutes for me to walk away to calm down. Think of that Watchtower (1987? 1988?) that counseled elders when talking to abuse victims on patience as sometimes they "spoke excitedly".
On one hand you don't want the elders to be policemen and on the other you pop off with this nonsense. Are you serious? The elders CAN'T WAIT?
Granted a janitor moonlighting as an elder probably can't tell when a child's been raped, traumatized, filled with shame, which is exactly why any reasonable person would think they should leave up to people who have trained, who have experience, who know what the hell they are doing! So what if it takes a few months? A year? Big deal.
In the meantime, you're telling me this elder body is so incompetent, so clueless, so lacking in basic human decency that they cannot look with the slightest bit of mercy on some child whose been raped?
Okay so if these guys can't tell who is guilty or who is innocent, then all the more reason they SHOULD NOT BE THE JUDGES!!!!!!
Doesn't common logic dictate that maybe, just maybe, if it is beyond their ability to determine guilt or innocence, they should leave it to someone else? So we don't have a clue who is guilty or who is innocent but we'll decide anyway.
And how is this a sign of Jehovah's love, justice, wisdom and power? Please leave the legalese aside.
Big Tex, I ask you this respectfully:
Why didn't your mother go to the Police directly?
Did the Elders specifically say to her that she would be disfellowshipped if she did?
Why didn't your Non-JW grandmother and aunt go to the Police? They shouldn't of been afraid of those JW Elders Gone Wild.
Take Care Big Tex,
Truthfully? Okay, I'll be very honest. I don't think I've ever posted this anywhere online on any board.
I was first raped by my grandfather while my mother stood in the doorway. She turned and walked away while I screamed at her to help me. I still have the pillow I used to staunch the blood, the stains are still there. Later on she molested me. My father, somewhere in there, began to rape me as well. I told my grandmother what was happening. She became so angry she broke my nose. Another time I was thrown down a flight of stairs. Some say it was my grandmother, others say it was my mother. I still have a scar on my forehead from that. I even told a stranger. This was 1966, so she was shocked and told me I should never tell such lies and she walked away.
All my abuse happened before the age of 5. This is why I chose my avatar. This is a picture of me at the age of 2, somewhere around when I suspect the abuse began (I'll never know for sure). Being so young, I'll never know all that happened. I have 4 different rapists that I know of, maybe there are more but I don't know. Memories and images kind of blend together. I still see horrific images of a child being murdered, blood everywhere. Another time I saw a puppy being eviscerated by my parents and their friends. Is it real? I don't know, nor will I ever. How much does anyone remember from when they were that young? Maybe it's all a figment of my imagination. 20 years ago I was determined to finally stop those images popping into my head and I interviewed every relative and friend of my parents who would talk to me. They not only confirmed much of what I remembered (though not all), they told me much more.
Now I'll tell you what I told those elders 20 years ago. My parents were not Jehovah's Witnesses when they raped me. After they were baptized, my father moved on to my sister. I saw that happen. Naturally both parents denied it and that was that. Why didn't my grandmother and aunt stop it? I don't know. I asked them and they didn't give very good answers. They waffled between denial and sadness. It's one thing to point the finger at others but it's different when it's pointed at you. I do know they were ashamed, so I think that's something they had to live with. Mostly I think they lived in a state of total denial. Reality is too difficult to live with. I forgave them, but it still hurts deep inside. There are scars no one ever sees.
As for the police? I cannot honestly answer that. There is more about the police and such but it gets complicated and I don't want to bog down this thread. I was only 5. I did my best to get help. No one came forth. One of my clearest memories is looking out of my bedroom window and seeing a full moon. I imagined that was God. I actually said out loud, "Please."
Of course it didn't stop. And I, like so many other abuse victims, experienced a side of God that is cold and uncaring.
But then God has very little to do with Jehovah's Witnesses and the two witness rule.
And all this goes on while Jehovah's Witnesses demand that child present 2 witnesses. And so it goes on and on ...
Chris
