The '2 witness rule' is definitely contained in the Bible...
Deuteronomy 19 (The Message)
15 You cannot convict anyone of a crime or sin on the word of one witness. You need two or three witnesses to make a case.
Leaving aside that this scripture does not specifically mention child abuse, please help me understand your thoughts.
How do you reconcile this scripture as applying to child abuse when with the provision of an adult woman raped in a field does not have to provide 2 or 3 witnesses? Why would Jehovah God make such a specific provision for an adult woman and not for a child?
How do you reconcile this scripture as applying to child abuse with the provison of the cities of refuge? One could accidently murder another and then flee to the city of refuge. No word is mentioned of eyewitnesses. Why would Jehovah make such a specific provision and not for a child?
1 Timothy 5:19 (The Message)
19 Don't listen to a complaint against a leader that isn't backed up by two or three responsible witnesses.
John 8:17 (Amplified Bible)
17 In your [own] Law it is written that the testimony (evidence) of two persons is reliable and valid.
Again, the scriptures you quote do not mention child abuse. Forgive me, I am looking for a specific scripture that says two witnesses are required for a child to prove they were raped. There is a reason I say this, as Jehovah's Witnesses do not apply the two witness rule evenly. I'm curious why Jehovah's Witnesses apply this rule to child abuse as opposed to say, murder? If someone stepped forward to accuse Brother X of murder, would the elders not report the accusation to the police? Would they demand the accuser, the one who saw the murder, present 2 eyewitnesses to prove it?
Logistically speaking, how exactly would a child present 2 or 3 witnesses to make their case? We know now that the vast majority of child abuse takes place by someone the child knows, usually a family member. How is it possible for there to be any witnesses, much less eyewitnesses? I mean no disrespect, but rapes do not happen in a stadium with 70,000 cheering people.
Elders, often are not equipped, to fully deal with this insidious crime that is degrading the fabric of humanity.
I'm comfortable with our imperfect 2 witness policy for now. I'm am not comfortable with how some Elders Gone Wild hide behind this policy,so as not to get their hands dirty in the messy business of protecting the flock from wolves in sheeps clothing. Some Elders, who I personally know handle the 2 witness rule wonderfully. Others do not.
All the more reason, if Jehovah's Witnesses were truly sincere, then immediately announce a change and instruct elders any accusation of child abuse should be reported to the police immediately irregardless of whether they were legally required to do so.
It is difficult for me to believe Jesus, or John, or Paul or any other apostle would look a child in the face and turn a blind eye and refuse to help simply because they were not legally required to do so.
(So victims, go to the police 1st. Get a conviction from Caesar. Then bring that to the Elders as your "strong circumstantial evidence". If that doesn't get them df'd then at least they will be tagged and bagged for the entire congregation to see.)
Outstanding advice and thank you for saying so. I am forced to ask, however, if Jehovah's Witnesses were sincere, why not instruct elders everywhere to do just that? Wouldn't it be less hassle, less painful, for the elders to step back, wait on Ceasar to render its verdict and then if they feel it necessary to protect the congregation, decide after the conviction (if it happens that way) to disfellowship the offender? Wouldn't that make much more sense than the current arrangement?
Wouldn't it also be more logical for Jehovah's Witnesses to mandate elders to do what they are, supposedly, equipped to do and that is to address very real spiritual damage that sexual abuse causes? When a child first learns the concept of god, they picture their daddy floating in the sky (or something similar). When a child first learns the concept of prayer, many times they think of it like making a wish to a genie and ask for a toy or candy. When god does not answer that prayer, it is a learning tool for the child. When a child of abuse makes that same prayer, there is only one thing they ask for. And when god ignores that prayer and the rapes continue -- the child experiences a cold, uncaring side of god.
Isn't this the proper function of elders in sexual abuse? Isn't addressing spiritual needs such as this the very thing elders could actually make a positive contribution? Instead of acting like ignorant, ill-equipped, hostile policemen, why not use the Bible to help, instead of to hurt? And why don't Jehovah's Witnesses mandate this instead of coming out with illogical rules that are not based in any way shape or form on a message from a loving god?
20 years ago a circuit overseer sat in my living room and told me he would see to it personally that I was disfellowshipped unless I "shut up". I know of a situation just 6 or 7 years ago where a preschool child was molested, the parents did what you suggested, the offender was convicted and spent a whole year in jail. When he came back the elders assigned this convicted offender to the same book study as his victim.
This happens over and over and over and over. It's not just "imperfect men". It is a systemic problem. Using the Bible as a shield does not address a very real, very dangerous problem.
The Elder guide book also states that 2 separate witnesses of the same kind of wrong doing on separate occasions could stand together and accuse their perpetrator. (I personally know of a case where this worked perfectly to get a lying no good pedophile disfellowshipped.)
I'm glad to know this worked out for someone. Thank you for giving that experience.
The elders in my congregation refused to listen to my worldly grandmother and my worldly aunt. Why? Because "you know how worldly people lie and want to bring down Jehovah's organization."
I don't know, maybe things have changed in that respect. I hope so.
The JW elder guide book also states this on page 93: "Victims of sexual abuse need to be treated with extreme thoughtfulness and kindness. Elders should always do what they reasonably can to protect children from further abuse"
Forgive me, but what happens when they are not? What happens when just the opposite happens? What is the procedure in place to prevent cruel treatment by bodies of elders?
Since many, (not all) cases of child molestation in the JW world involve family members or close friends, parents often fail to report to the police out of embarasment. I will not judge them, but in my heart I feel they continue the cycle of abuse
You seem like a decent person, so I want to give you the benefit of the doubt. I must say, however, your statement is, at best, naive, and at worst extraordinarily cruel.
I've been on this board for over 7 years. I know of many cases where the child or the child's family were threatened with being disfellowshipped. To an outsider this means nothing. But you, I'm assuming you are a long time Witness, understand the impact that threat has. Not only does it mean being shunned by every friend and family member you have, it also means you are dead before Jehovah. I remember how hard it was for me to face those 9 elders and to stand up to that CO. It was even harder facing up to the idea that if I were disfellowshipped, Jehovah would hate me.
And all fordoingnothingwrong.
You reference incest, this is what I endured. My father is still a ministerial servant in good standing. I was left out of my mother's funeral talk and banned from attending her funeral at the Kingdom Hall. I'm told there were even brothers standing guard outside.
If, god forbid, this happened to my child, of course I would report to the police. But you are asking a great deal out of parents that very likely have incest in their past, additionally facing retribution from the elders and shunning from the congregation and ultimately facing death from Jehovah.
Again I must ask, what are Jehovah's Witnesses doing to help those people, rather than making it more difficult? To be candid, I see very little.
It is important for you to understand the two witness rule is not just a black-and-white rule. Its effects are profound and spread out impacting and damaging people who have already endured hideous abuse. This is about real people, not arbitrary rules written by barely literate goat herders 2,000 years ago about subjects that have nothing to do with child abuse.
Chris