Posts by Noumenon

1

Wishful Thinking

by Noumenon in

believing that because it would be nice if something were true, then it must actually be true (it would be nice to think jesus returned in 1914. it would be nice to think armageddon is just around the corner).

this pattern of thought is extremely common, and very tempting because it allows us to avoid unpalatable truths.

in extreme forms it is a king of self-deception; in milder forms, an unwarranted optimism (believing the end is 'just around the corner' motivates one to keep performing as one is expected to as a jw).

Noumenon

Believing that because it would be nice if something were true, then it must actually be true (it would be nice to think Jesus returned in 1914. It would be nice to think Armageddon is just around the corner). This pattern of thought is extremely common, and very tempting because it allows us to avoid unpalatable truths. In extreme forms it is a king of self-deception; in milder forms, an unwarranted optimism (believing the end is 'just around the corner' motivates one to keep performing as one is expected to as a JW). It is surprising the lengths to which some people go and the rationalisations they will make in order to avoid confronting evidence that would undermine their wishful thinking (eg, nothing wrong with our cherished 1914 teaching, but 'rather than providing a rule for measuring time the term 'generation' as used by Jesus refers principally to contemporary people of a certain historical period, with their identifying charactistics'. WT Nov 1 '95. Eg, our policy on child abuse is perfectly fine and in harmony with scripture!) Wishful thinking can be dangerous because it puts a veil between us and the truth. JW's as an Organisation and as individuals fall victim to this.

27

Daniel 11:37

by Yizuman in

daniel 11.

37 neither shall he regard the god of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all..

i'm leaving this up for interpretation.. this verse is speaking of the coming anti-christ and it gives a bit of some detail about his background....note it states that he will have no desire for women.. so what does that make the anti-christ be???.

Noumenon

"What have I to do with you woman" - JC

"When thou goest to a woman take they whip" - Friedrick Nietzshe

13

My experience and motives

by Noumenon in

i'm an inactive dub.

i still ponder a lot on my true motives and the chain of events and developments in my heart and mind that have led to where i am.

here's my story anyway.

Noumenon

Greetings. I'm an inactive dub. I still ponder a lot on my true motives and the chain of events and developments in my heart and mind that have led to where I am. Here's my story anyway. Like many I was troubled by the 'new light' on the meaning of the 'this generation' thing that came out in the mid 1990's (I still believe the Society have this all wrong), and I also fortuitously discovered other chronological interpretations which made me question 607BCE and 2520 years and so forth. I think this led me to lose respect and faith in the JW leadership and begin to think more critically about what I was being told. I was now sceptical of anything relating to prophetic interpretations and the timing of events surrounding the end of the system and Christ's return as taught by the WTS. I think this then led to an erosion in my ability to withstand immorality, because I was a single brother who had not had much luck with sisters, and before long I came into temptation to be immoral. Eventually I fell into immorality with a nearly divorced sister, who was at it happens on her way out of the truth anyway. I got privately reproved after running to the elders 2 days after I did 'the deed', but never quite recovered, and didn't 'knuckle down' like a good dub should do to prove their repentance. So I lost the respect of friends and the congregation. I sensed I was being shunned. I was on a slippery slope emotionally. So I eventually just stopped attending altogether out of extreme discouragement. I could no longer sense the love or friendship of the rather cliquey congo I was in (how many aren't cliquey though). I then fell into fornication again with a worldly women this time. I felt bad about it the whole time, but I was dying of loneliness and felt cold emotionally, so I carried on for a while, trying to rationalise in my mind what my body and emotions craved and what I knew in my heart and mind was wrong. Eventually I couldn't take it anymore and spurned the love of this nice girl, who I hurt badly by pushing away (something I still regret in hindsight). I ran to the elders like a weak child and wanted my conscience cleared. Amazingly they didn't deep fry me but merely privately reproved me again (I guess I've always been good in 'interview' situations). But thereafter I was being shunned even more and not shown friendship socially by the congo and other single ones. An elder even mentioned that he'd heard someone mention they thought I was a 'womaniser' (I guess I was) which made me feel terrible as I knew now that others were gossiping about me and I had a reputation. So I felt isolated and started missing more and more meetings and stopped going on FS. Eventually I sought the company of my formerly worldly girlfriend again, but I just using her for company and sex really (yes, what a total bastard, I agree), until I reached a point of such self-loathing that I just had to run away from myself. And so I moved to a different part of the country altogether, to try a fresh start spiritually. I had lost all self-respect and despised my own hypocritical immoral behaviour. I joined up with a new congregation in my old home city, with old friends around me and family, who I felt could offer me the compansionship and emotional support I needed to rebuild spiritually. I tried really hard for a while and was doing quite well, but because of my old persistent doubts about some of the Society's teaching re chronology and the timing of Christ's presence etc, I just couldn't maintain the level of service expected of a typical dub. I slackened off and weakened, and isolated myself yet again. I also resented the elders who I felt couldn't be bothered offering me any sheperding or encouragement. And then, yes you guessed it, I met another worldy woman and fell into the same rotten cycle of fornication/remorse/fornication/remorse/fornication again, feed by loneliness and a normal longing for companionship and love. Eventually I fessed to the elders again (don't know why I bothered looking back), and this time I got deep fried for sure (3 strikes and yer out kid!) and was now right out of the truth. But I began attending practically every meeting to get reinstated as quickly as possibly, despite lapsing into immorality a few times while being disfellowshipped and basically lying at my reinstatement meeting 9 months later. What a filthy hypocrite I felt. Yet my main motive in getting reinstated was to have the company of my loved ones again, especially my mother, who was really hurting by my being d'd. Being a classic JW she wouldn't have nought to do with me while d'd, and that pained me also. So my motive for getting re-instated wasn't sincere and genuine. I just wanted to be able to be with my family and a couple of close JW friends again, that's all (what does the Society expect when they create such a cruel shunning policy - they are emotionally blackmailing d'd people into returning so they can associate with loved ones and friends again).

I never recovered after getting reinstated. I ended up carrying on a secret immoral relationship with a sister who threw herself at me in my congregation. What a damn idiot. No one else knows to this day. She just carries on pretending she's a good little dub sister. I've tried to end things with her and I think I've managed to do that now. My conscience is destroyed by my own immorality and sins and I just couldn't face sitting in the Kingdom Hall knowing what I was doing. (1 Cor 14:25)

Now I seem trapped in a cycle of fornication. I miss being a JW in many many ways, and even though I know they have got some things wrong, mainly 1914, and I feel awful and ashamed at the reproach on jehovah's name by the child molestation scandals breaking out (their policy on this is so wrong wot?), there is a big part of me would like to be back again, even if just for the warm association and friendship again. But I feel I practically no chance of gaining the respect of a sister and finding a marriage mate, because of all my past misdemeanours and my bad reputation. I just know I won't have the strength to lift myself by my own shoe-strings and go to every meeting and go on FS all the time to rebuild my reputation. It's too hard and I'm too weak.

I often think back nostalgically to my happy times as a dub. I was born into it, so it will always be a part of me, I'm not stupid enough to fool myself into not believing that. I am a CHRISTIAN. I WANT to be a GOOD CHRISTIAN and obey Jehovah and Jesus Christ! That's what it's about at the end of the day - OBEDIENCE TO GOD AND JESUS! I hate myself for being immoral and wish I could bust out of this cycle and just be strong for what I know is right and be a good christian again. One day I know I will...with God's help. Meantime I hope Jehovah doesn't judge me too harshly but looks for something deeper and better in the recesses of my heart. Every now and then I offer a little tearful prayer to jehovah for mercy and forgiveness. I hope he hears me and searches my kidneys for something good. One day I know I will be a good christian again and make him proud of me again.

40

If God And His Thoughts Are Perfect - How Did Humans & Satan Become Evil?

by Latin assassin from Manhattan in

this question may not make too much sense.

if a man creates a computer, using the best parts and software design with the intent of analyzing data accurately and reliably, would he also design it with the ability or freedom to 'crash' or spread viruses to other computers if it chose to?

if a man trains a dog with the intent of being a family pet, would he also give it the knowledge to kill humans or other animals?

Noumenon

You are putting a biased assumption on what you think being perfect and in God's image means. Just being created perfect and in God's image doesn't mean one has no conception of evil, malice, selfishness, etc. Jesus was perfect but was 'tempted' the bible tells us, so he obviously felt something akin to what we feel as a pull to do wrong on occasions, but being perfect he always mastered it. He 'conquered the world'. He also said 'let not my will, but yours take place', so being perfect doesn't mean he could not have a will and desire at odds with God's.

27

Comments You Will Not Hear at the 8-10-03 WT Study

by blondie in

comments you will not hear at the 8-10-03 wt study

reviewer comments are in black and parentheses ().

wt quotes are in red or quotes ""

Noumenon

Blondie, you are the queen of hyper criticalness. Your ad-hominem approach to reviewing Watchtower Articles is understandable, but sometimes unfair. While there is a lot of self-righteous 'truth by authority' garbage in most of the Watchtower articles, there is also a lot of stuff that I find to be rather good bible instruction!

4

Snakes image in illustration in WT study just done

by Noumenon in

i was at the meeting on sunday just gone (first time in about 5 weeks), and being a lot more attentive to detail these days, i noticed in the illustration of jacob and his sons (page 20 of june 15th watchtower) on the wall behind the old jacob there is what is clearly a bird with wings spread, but have a look at it's nec and head?

it looks more like a coiled serpent with large wings than a bird!

more sneaky images of snakes and s's (sssatan the original ssserpent)?.

Noumenon

Whatever Shamus. I take offence at being told to stop going to meetings just as much as I resent being told by the Organisation to keep going to them. If I so choose to attend the occassional meeting what's it to you?

4

Snakes image in illustration in WT study just done

by Noumenon in

i was at the meeting on sunday just gone (first time in about 5 weeks), and being a lot more attentive to detail these days, i noticed in the illustration of jacob and his sons (page 20 of june 15th watchtower) on the wall behind the old jacob there is what is clearly a bird with wings spread, but have a look at it's nec and head?

it looks more like a coiled serpent with large wings than a bird!

more sneaky images of snakes and s's (sssatan the original ssserpent)?.

Noumenon

I was at the meeting on Sunday just gone (first time in about 5 weeks), and being a lot more attentive to detail these days, I noticed in the illustration of Jacob and his sons (page 20 of June 15th Watchtower) on the wall behind the old Jacob there is what is clearly a bird with wings spread, but have a look at it's nec and head? It looks more like a coiled serpent with large wings than a bird!

More sneaky images of snakes and S's (Sssatan the original Ssserpent)?

Or am I being paranoid after having viewed on websites all these so called subliminal images in WTS publications?

NB - and check out the smiling elder on the next page...look at those eyebrows...if you drew some fangs on him he'd pass for a great Dracula.

3

Bible Students and Christ's presence

by Noumenon in

am i correct in understanding that the religious group known as the bible students, who still hold to charle's russell's teachings, still actually belief and officially subsribe to the notion that christ invisibly returned in 1874?

can anyone confirm this?.

if this is correct, i feel this is a glimpse of how the wts will never drop 1914. what may happen is there may eventually be a split, probably shortly after 2014, with a new group dropping 1914 and revisiting all prophecies with fresh interpretations, while jehovah's witnesses will remain with those still dogmatically sticking to 1914, much like the bible students group still hold to 1874.

Noumenon

Much thanks. The Dawn Bible Students are probably the group. I seem to recall reading comments from someone on this site who said they belonged to them (probably more than one?). I will have to see if any such group have a website and whether it talks about when they believe Christ's parousia began, or begins. If they hold so closely to Russell's early teachings I would say they still cling to 1874, believe it or not.

27

Let Us Create A True Religion...

by Latin assassin from Manhattan in

the wts feels that they are the true religion because they place tons of literature based on their own interpretations and because they show true christian love for one another.

this forum is testimony to the validity of their cause so i won't bother to repeat the obvious.

but if a true religion were to exist, i belive it shoud be based on the following:

Noumenon

Mizpah, you said: "My point was that in the 7 churches in Revelation, all had different ideas and beliefs as to what constituted the Christian faith."

That's not how I read the messages to the 7 congregations. They had faults and weaknesses that Jesus brought to their attention, but there is no evidence at all that they were not united on their core beliefs and what constituted the christian faith. You can guarantee none of them believed in the trinity, an immortal soul, hellfire, etc etc. There were disputes over the extent that they were to separate and no longer follow jewish customs etc, but those were minor matters.

Like you I do think the JW's have got a lot of prophetic interpretations wrong and the timing of events. E-watchman of course does a grand job of exposing a lot of their mistakes in this regard, despite his ideas on the future political development of the system sounding quite imaginative (not to say he is wrong mind you). Still, it does not follow that because Jehovah has chosen to keep the JW elite blinded to the truth about a lot of these things that they could not be Jehovah's true Organisation that he has principally used in these last days to reveal the truth about the lies taught by Christendom, to magnify his name to the nations, and to show what the Kingdom really is and the issues relating to universal sovereignty. This doesn't necessarily mean that he HAS used JW's to do this, but neither does it prove he hasn't. To say that JW's definitely aren't God's true religion is dangerous, as God's nation in the past has always had serious faults, rebellions, apostasies in it, yet they were STILL his chosen nation. Same goes in the 1st century. It is fallacious to say that a modern day religion used by God as the true religion should be doctrinally flawless, and flawless in it's treatment of it's own and others. Truth in a human organisation is never going to be 100%, until Jesus does return like you say. I see that his returning could be to cleanse and humble his people, who have grown proud, loveless, and riddled with error, rather than meaning he will at the time of his returning FIRST ESTABLISH a true religion. The way I see it the issue is how close is a religion professing to be the true religion to Christ's teachings and the central doctrines of scripture regarding the important issues, rather than focusing too strictly on the smaller things that are more difficult to be certain of, such as interpretations of ambigous prophecy. On a percentage scale, and if one can excuse what may seem a rather unscientific and subjective approach, I would put JW's at 90-95% (depending on what weighting you give something like the 1914 error they teach, upon which all their interpretations of modern time prophecy revolves). Their is a group remarkably similar to JW's in their teachings that might be up around a similar mark. Then Christadelphians might be around 70%? Then all the rest in Christendom seem to languish pathetically low doctrinally, despite many doing great charitable works and being full of lovely sincere people. Even then, if one accepts for purely arguments sake that JW's score the highest mark for measuring up to what scripture actually truthfully teaches, it still doesn't mean they are the only true religion at this time. There is a very good chance they could be, or once were and have since found God's disfavour, but it is not conclusive. The truth will become manifest at the very end.

It seems to me taht a lot of persons on this site seem to conclude that JW's cannot possibly be God's true religion, and failing to find another religion that comes within cooey of measuring up to scripture like JW's do, they conclude that there must be no true religion. They then start to question the truthfulness of the bible at all. And then some even begin to wonder about God's actual existence. It's a slippery slope. Many also conclude that by their own unhappy personal experiences in the JW organisation, or from observing or hearing about others bad treatment, that this proves it cannot be God's religion. Although that is a natural human reaction, I don't feel that is sensible and could be quite dangerous in that they could be allowing themselves to be blinded to future developments Jesus may yet reveal in relation to JW's. It would be more beneficial to take a more measured approach when in trying to rationally weigh up the merit or otherwise of JW's. (But that's hard to do for victim's of child moletation admittedly - they have every right to feel stumbled).

30

Fear

by onacruse in

kate and i just had one of our frequent "patio" discussions...my, how she sparks my mind!

we've been watching some tapes that a friend gave us, about the origin of the bible and the similarities to (read "borrowed from") other ancient mythologies.

very interesting anthropological and sociological information, even showing the biblical connection to astrology (e.g.

Noumenon

'Fear God and give him glory' - that's all. No need to fear an Organisation.