Fear

onacruse

Kate and I just had one of our frequent "patio" discussions...my, how she sparks my mind!

We've been watching some tapes that a friend gave us, about the origin of the Bible and the similarities to (read "borrowed from") other ancient mythologies. Very interesting anthropological and sociological information, even showing the Biblical connection to astrology (e.g. the Mazzaroth @ Job 38:32 w/RBi8 ftn & 2 Kings 23:5).

So why have I almost all my life been unwilling to openly investigate such issues? Was I stupid? No. Was I blinkered? Yes, to some extent. But the really fundamental emotional force working in me was fear, fear that somehow I might be jeopardizing my continued existence. There is nothing more primal than the need to survive. And it can drive us to do things that, objectively, are totally irrational...or, prevent us from doing things that are completely rational.

I think there is merit to keep this in mind when we look at each other and wonder, perhaps openly, "why won't you look at this?"

Craig

Mulan

But the really fundamental emotional force working in me was fear, fear that somehow I might be jeopardizing my continued existence.

For me, I must know! I just have to find out what is out there that I didn't look at before. Some of it is true, and some just isn't...............you have to be careful about other philosophies too. Be a critical reader and "watcher", if it's tapes you like.

Remember, anyone can write a book, or make a tape.

onacruse

Mulan:

Some of it is true, and some just isn't

Yep. I've seen more than a few what I consider (for the time being) to be very conjectural inferences made in those tapes (mostly, I'm a book kinda guy, but the same principle applies). Like you say, use good "critical" evaluation and, if need be, suspend judgment until such time as I feel comfortable within myself that the totality of evidence is sufficient.

Really, though, I'm probing to a more visceral level: why be afraid to examine? Rather like the WTS mantra about "polluting your mind" by merely reading about non-conforming subjects. That's just bogus! but it plays into the fear I had about my "everlasting life." That fear was mind-numbing, paralyzing. And yet, since fear and the need to survive is such a primal emotion, it's perfectly understandable that someone just escaping from such a cultic mentality would have great difficulty in even taking the first steps of open-minded self-examination.

Not an easy hurdle to jump...not easy at all.

Craig

Mulan

Yes, I agree. Many are still afraid to venture into areas once considered "demonized".

As for me, I am open to everything, but try to view it critically. I find amazing things sometimes. I wonder why I was so afraid to "go there" before. Much of it is just common sense and historically accurate.

hooberus

We've been watching some tapes that a friend gave us, about the origin of the Bible and the similarities to (read "borrowed from") other ancient mythologies.

Do you have examples? Most of the "borrowed" examples that I have seen either are not similar at all or actually post-date the Bible. When one examines the primary-sources of these claims the evidence for borrowing usually disappears. Possible exceptions would be some of the ancient creation and flood accounts which seem to have some distinct common points with Genesis. However this does not necessarily mean that the Genesis accounts are not true, or even that Genesis borrowed from these sources. It could be that both accounts come from a common true source and that Genesis preserves by divine guidance the actual account whereas the "pagan" accounts are corrupted by time.

onacruse

hooberus, I'm just now beginning to examine some of these issues, so I don't have any thought-out response to your questions.

If I may ask: you seem not to be "fearful" about exploring such questions. If you ever had a fear like I describe about myself...how did you overcome it? What "broke the ice" for you? (nomb)

Craig

PS: I edited your quote of my first post to remove a personal name that I shouldn't have mentioned in the first place.

little witch

Gosh, How thought provoking, Craig!

You have really hit on something here. Fear, is very primitive in us all, and must be overcome.

But until it is, we are hobbled.

And you are right, we who have been fortunate enough to get past that fear, and fight it,

need to be more patient with those who haven't been able to yet.

Is that what you are trying to say, or am I bending it? LOL

Anyways, thats where your post took me..

Inquiry

I remember all to well that gut wrenching, absolutely desperate feeling of fear... I had it a lot when I was a witless (not being worthy enough of Jehovah).. and I had to really wrestle with it when I went public (losing everything I "thought" I built up)...It was horribly traumatic, and the fear was really irrational...induced by mind control tactics, which I might add, work very well... and enforced by other members of the cult... the thing about that kind of fear is once it's understood, it seems to be undone... For me, the very basis of that fear, was being alone... Being abandoned by my "friends" and by God....

No such thing occured though... because in truth, I didn't have friends, I had enforcers... and I didn't have God... I had wishful thinking... so the reality of that situation was, that I was already alone and I was already abandoned... the irrational fear became a side issue... and when that happened, I was no longer afraid...

After I read CoC, and a several other books dealing with JWs... I realized I hadn't done the "dreaded" antithesis of the cult... read other religious material....So I picked up a book... it could have been any book, the one I read was New Age, called "The Christ Mind" and by reading it, I started to undo the WT programming. I can't tell you how many times that little book sailed across the room! I can laugh now... but at the time, it was really hard to do... I'm certainly not saying I'm new age...definately not...but during this, I found that for me, the issue isn't about having concrete beleifs... I've become much more comfortable not beleiving anything... just making room for the possibilities... I don't live a Godless life.. but I don't exactly live a God inclusive life either... I just live....and that fear... isn't there anymore...

Just my two....

Inq

onacruse

lw, that's exactly what I'm thinking about here. And what you say about "fortunate enough to get past that fear" raises a related question: Just how does one get past that fear? Since fear is so primal, what other counter-acting emotion can overcome it?

In my case, as best I can recall, it was anger that made me act against my fear. Oh sure, I'd read some anti-JW stuff over the years, here and there...even read 30 Years a Watchtower Slave when I was a teen. But my intent was to debunk that stuff as garbage...I didn't for one second think that any of it was true, or that it would even slightly shake my beliefs; so, I was "safe." But in the early 90s, after accumulating many years of disappointment, I started to become palpably angry, and read CoC (among some other things). Remarkably (or maybe not), I let my fear kick back in, and retreated to my "safe" point of "head in sand." Took many more years, and some externally enforced circumstances, to get me to where I am today.

Now, if my experience of that balancing act between anger and fear is at all typical, then that might explain why so many people that are "coming out" seem irrationally conflicted...it's because they are conflicted, at such a gut level that it's beyond words. And, in such a case, as was true with me, it isn't the rationalization that breaks through to the core; it's the discovery that someone else knows how you feel that enables you to drop your defenses. The real dialogue about "details" comes afterwards.

This is, of course, a broad generalization, and I'm certainly no psychologist.

Craig

searcher

It could be that both accounts come from a common true source and that Genesis preserves by divine guidance the actual account whereas the "pagan" accounts are corrupted by time.

It could be that both accounts come from a common true source and that "pagan" accounts preserves by divine guidance the actual account whereas the Genesis accounts are corrupted by time.

Fear

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