ok frenchy, you asked for it you got it!.
my pet issue is the conscience thing.
just whos' conscience are they talking about when they us this phrase "it's a conscience issue"?.
Hey, 7,
I found out about the Question from Readers' Voting thing through Simon's other website. Go figure, huh? then I read, and reread it.
I thought, well, cool! I've always wanted to try being a Democrat - they're so loud!! But then, I talked with a couple other local witnesses - and they set me straight on the matter of my conscience and so forth.
Then I found this place, and, well, cool!
this link has a scan of a printed by the society brochure planned giving to benefit the kingdom.
the faithful and discreet slave has a fund to enable us to contribute stocks and saving to the kingdom preaching work whilst both we and them enjoytaxation benefits.or if we want to bequest our properties etc to the preaching work via this fund.
we can get it out before hand if we want too.
Hey, guys,
Ever wonder why, after H20 and Jesus Witnesses and others telling about this site, it can't be accessed anymore?
insight book, page 244-245: "lie.
the opposite of truth.
lying generally involves saying something false to a person who is entitled to know the truth and doing so with the intent to deceive or to injure him or another person.
Hey 7,
I have always heard Mathew 7:6 applied to the preaching work. Such as, don't waste time or arguing with people who do not want to listen to you. Because the pearls are the biblical truths.
These truths are too valuable to be trampled on by swine. Well, ok, trampled on by women, too.
I have never, before now, heard it as a justification for lying. Brave New World.
Edited by - waiting on 13 June 2000 20:0:32
frenchy, i actually read the article in the 89 watchtower the following quote comes from.. w89 9/1 19 remaining organized for survival into the millennium.
"7 only jehovahs witnesses, those of the anointed remnant and the "great crowd," as a united organization under the protection of the supreme organizer, have any scriptural hope of surviving the impending end of this doomed system dominated by satan the devil.".
reading the article it appears to me that the statement, pretty direct as i said in one of my other posts, is based on the understanding of the status of sheep and goats at that time.
Dear Xandit,
"Nearly everyone posting here has agreed that most Witnesses do not believe only Witnesses will survive Armageddon."
What are you basing that fact upon? I asked in another post a very definite question, and asked for a very definite answer, based upon the Society's teachings, either written or verbal.
If you missed it, please reply to this hypothetical question:
"I am one on Jehovah's Witnesses. I do not wish to continue to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses. I have, due to independent Bible study, found that my conscience does not agree with the Society's teachings. I wish to share my thoughts with my friends and family. I am not stealing, lying, fornicating, or doing anything unscriptural. I love Jehovah and Jesus."
Based upon the Society's teachings, both written and verbal, will I survive Armageddon? Friend suggested me read about another man who will most likely survive Armageddon - who is not a Jehovah's Witness. However, Friend did not tell me that the man lived in the 16th century - long before the Faithful and Discreet Slave as we have come to know the primary ones of the Governing Body. Not a fair comparison.......
I obviously was asking about me, or persons like me, or anybody who is not an active Jehovah Witness, based upon the teachings, will God kill me? Friend used the example of a man dead for 300 years. I made the wrong assumption that we were talking about living people.
Again, what do you think it is the primary reason that parents push hard to have their children baptised? It is the dedication - the committment. They surely loved God before they were baptised, as much as they did after baptism. So why the necessary committment, which is now worded so that persons getting baptised are baptised with recognition to Jehovah and Jesus and the Watchtower Society? So God won't kill them at Armageddon - keep them in the Truth.
Why in the world do you think a normal person would work all week, go to religious meetings, study with your kids, keep the house going, then the only morning that you could possible sleep in or snuggle, you get up, get the kids and spouse up, and go wake up strangers at their door? And before going, you have already paid for the magazines you are giving them, you ask for money from strangers, you pay for gas, and coffee breaks to keep grumbling family quiet, and then give the donation that you perhaps received to the Society?
And if you're really theocratic, you will then go to the meeting Sunday, forgo lunch until you get "an hour in service" then buy or make lunch for your again grumbling family - then go back to work on Monday. And Monday is Book Study, so it starts all over again.
Who is their right minds would do this for their ENTIRE LIVES, as some of the older ones have done.
To be sure, they love Jehovah. But why do the other things?? Because He told us to through our only channel to Jehovah. But why do we do this for decades? Because we have been taught - we know - that persons lives depend on our knocking at the door, placing literature, bible study, etc.
But do we love absolute strangers that much? NO!!! We do these things because we don't want to be "found somehow disapproved" in the end and God will kill us and our young children. We are doing these things to please Jehovah and Jesus, to be sure, but we are also doing these things to try and save our lives.
And our Society has taught us that - and we are not brain dead, we are believers. Big difference, well, maybe.
My poor sister cries every time she speaks about her disfellowshipped son. Why? "Because the time is so short, and he might not have enough time to come back into the organization before Armageddon. I can't bear the thought of him dying." And I am quoting for I've heard this for 10 years from her - and she is sincere and a pioneer.
Perhaps this whole thread has exasperated us all. And, in my opinion, it is because there is so many double meanings applied to our thinking abilities, our emotions, and our hearts.
We do not judge other people about their ever- lasting lives. We just must preach to them to come into Jehovah's organization or God will kill them at Armageddon. Because that is their only chance of gaining God's approval. We cannot even judge ourselves, because we have been taught that we may not have properly "run the race until the finish." We just keep trying and trying to save other people's lives so that God will not kill us or them.
No doubt we love Jehovah. And no doubt that we believe, and have been taught, that He will kill us if we are found lacking at Armageddon.
we all know the organization hasn't been shy about making predictions for what could happen in the future as far as the world and world conditions go.. now its your turn to state where the organization will be in 2 years, 5 years and 10 years.
what will "conditions" be like?
what are your hopes?
Dear Thorn,
What a loaded statement! This is my looking into possible future events:
1. The Society will have a much rougher time keeping it's servants in the First World countries - too many computers and women too outspoken. Too much information contrary to their teachings becoming available.
The Society will become more mainstream until they are indistinguishable from other religions, in general.
2. The Society will continue to have major growth in Third World coutries. Few computers, less education, poverty, and women still tend the fires or work 18 hours a day, in general.
3. The older Jehovah Witnesses, in general, will not have much Social Security benefits in their old age, as they never really worked with the idea of retiring. Then they hit retirement and said, "Wait a minute......."
4. Just an observation, but the older Jehovah Witnesses in Third World countries, in general, have not worked towards the idea of reaching retirement age either. What happens to them in 5, 10, 20 years? We have Social Security in the USA - on a limited time table - they have nothing.
Not really encouraging, is it?
insight book, page 244-245: "lie.
the opposite of truth.
lying generally involves saying something false to a person who is entitled to know the truth and doing so with the intent to deceive or to injure him or another person.
INSIGHT BOOK, page 244-245: "LIE. The opposite of truth. Lying generally involves saying something false to a person who is entitled to know the truth and doing so with the intent to deceive or to injure him or another person. A lie need not always be verbal. It can also be expressed in action, that is, a person may be living a lie. ...."
My first question. Can we lie to a person if we do not feel he is entitled to the truth? Obviously we would have an intent to deceive - or we would tell him the truth. Who determines who is entitled to a true statement? What if we didn't understand the situation or ramifications - would it still be a lie, or not a lie, if we misunderstood? What about the person we lie to? Do they have a choice and would they have the right to be angry when they found out that we lied to them? If we told them that we felt that they were not entitled to a true statement, could they make a case that we lied?
The Insight book continues with many examples of many types of lying, ....."While malicious lying is definitely condemned in the Bible, this does not mean that a person is under obligation to divulge truthful information to people who are not entitled to it. Jesus Christ counseled: "Do not give what is holy to dogs, neither throw your pearls before swine, that they may never trample them under their feet and turn around and rip you open. (Mt. 7:6) That is why Jesus on certain occasions refrained from giving full information or direct answers to certain questions when doing so could have brought unnecessary harm......Evidently the course of Abraham, Isaac, Rahab, and Elisha in misdirecting or in withholding full facts from nonworshipers of Jehovah must be viewed in the same light." .....
My second question. Who decides who is entitled to truthful information? Does our conscience lead us to ascertain if another person is entitled to truthful information? What if our conscience is wrong, or we have been given wrong information, are we then guilty of lying?
If we lied in Court, and get caught, could we use this Insight information to back us up? If we lied anywhere, could we use this information to say that is what we're taught - and we didn't feel that they were entitled to a true statement of truthful information, so we didn't maliciously lie.
The Insight book quotes Jesus Christ "Do not give what is holy to dogs,...... That is why Jesus on certain occasions refrained from giving full information or direct answers to certain questions when doing so could have brought unnecessary harm."
My third question. Is it lying to refrain from "giving full information or direct answers?"
Are we to use Jesus Christ as our example in lying?
Insight book, "Evidently the course of Abraham, Isaac, Rahab,and Elisha in misdirecting or in whthholding full facts from nonworshipers of Jehovah must be viewed in the same light ...."
My fourth question. Can we only lie to nonworshipers of Jehovah and it be alright? Can we lie to our brothers because we perceive they are not "entitled to know the truth and doing so with the intent to deceive....." Again, who decides?
WEBSTER'S DICTIONARY: "lie, verb, 1. to make an untrue statement with the intent to deceive. 2. to create a false or misleading impression. to affect by telling lies.
lie, noun, 1a. an assertion of something known or believed by the speaker to be untrue with intent to deceive. b. an untrue or inaccurate statement that may or may not be believed true by the speaker. 2. something that misleads or deceives. 3. a charge of lying."
According to the dictionary, it does not matter whether the person is "entitled to know the truth." Nor does it matter whether we are "under obligation to divulge truthful information to people who are not entitled to it."
According to the dictionary, there are different forms of lying, but they are all lying - and says nothing about an untrue statement not being a lie if we feel the other person is not entitled to a true statement.
We can accomodate these two similar, yet different definitions of a lie. Yes, a lie is the telling of an untruth (Insight and Webster).
But then, if the person is not entitled to the truth and we wish to deceive them (thus the reason for the lie), it's not wrong to lie. And Jesus is our example. (Insight book only)
We being Jehovah's Christian Witnesses, are free to use that example. But who determines who is entitled to know the truth? In my humble opinion, if a person chooses, he/she could determine just about anybody in any situation to not be entitled to know the truth.
I'm so glad my teenagers are grown up and never reasoned on the Insight definition.
this link has a scan of a printed by the society brochure planned giving to benefit the kingdom.
the faithful and discreet slave has a fund to enable us to contribute stocks and saving to the kingdom preaching work whilst both we and them enjoytaxation benefits.or if we want to bequest our properties etc to the preaching work via this fund.
we can get it out before hand if we want too.
Frenchy, go to Maxee's post on Blood Donating, near the bottom. A link is provided to Jesus Witness website where Circuit Leasing is advertised.
That really is strange, if it's legit.
ok frenchy, you asked for it you got it!.
my pet issue is the conscience thing.
just whos' conscience are they talking about when they us this phrase "it's a conscience issue"?.
Hi....
On H20 since June 6, there have been posts stating that in Denmark, one of the "head guys" was interviewed and he said that no longer would Jehovah's Witnesses be disfellowshipped for accepting a blood transfusion. Presumably, it would be a conscience matter.
As of last night, this had not been backed up with an actual copy of the news release. But, obviously, speculation is hot and heavy.
FRENCHY: As for the Circuit Leasing arrangement - go to Maxee's post, near the bottom, in the post on Blood Donating. There is a link there to the actual page. It was originally posted at the Jesus Witness website.
hi.
i just wanted to say a big thank you to everyone that is supporting this forum by participating in it and would like to encourage any visitors who may be lurking to stop lurking and join in !
Hey Roaming,
"The fantasy of every Australian woman is to have two men - one cleaning and one dusting."
Maureen Murphy
Is that true? Do you really have that in reality down there or is your fantasy the same as women in USA?
"If you speak three languages, you are trilingual. If you speak two languages, you're bilingual. If you speak one language, you're American." Sonny Spoon
Yo!!! You go, girl! Now, that's American.......
if you see me cry .
if you see me cry, just walk away, .
leave me be and don't ask me why.
Dear Frenchy,
Words, for the first time, escape me. Thank you for letting me talk. It's lonesome in my mind.
