About the 89 WT quote.

by Xandit 8 Replies latest jw friends

  • Xandit

    Frenchy, I actually read the article in the 89 Watchtower the following quote comes from.

    w89 9/1 19 Remaining Organized for Survival Into the Millennium
    "7 Only Jehovah’s Witnesses, those of the anointed remnant and the "great crowd," as a united organization under the protection of the Supreme Organizer, have any Scriptural hope of surviving the impending end of this doomed system dominated by Satan the Devil."

    Reading the article it appears to me that the statement, pretty direct as I said in one of my other posts, is based on the understanding of the status of sheep and goats at that time. Essentially that we were and had been in a dividing period since 1914. The relevant scripture is Matthew 25:32, 33 which reads

    32 And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left.

    However, as we all know the understanding on this matter has changed and this division is now seen as a future event connected with the tribulation. The article outlining the change, w95 10/15 26 What Future for the Sheep and the Goats made the following statement:

    "Of course, in the final analysis, Jesus is the one who is appointed to render judgment. It is not for us to determine who are sheep and who are goats.—Mark 2:8; Luke 5:22; John 2:24, 25; Romans 14:10-12; 1 Corinthians 4:5."

    I think the scriptures cited to support that statement, especially Romans 14:10-12 and 1 Corinthians 4:5, are particularly interesting. They clearly make the case that this is a matter that is not in our hands but in the hands of Jesus Christ.

    Mark 2:8
    8 But Jesus, having discerned immediately by his spirit that they were reasoning that way in themselves, said to them: "Why are YOU reasoning these things in YOUR hearts?

    Luke 5:22
    22 But Jesus, discerning their reasonings, said in answer to them: "What are YOU reasoning out in YOUR hearts?

    John 2:24-25
    24 But Jesus himself was not entrusting himself to them because of his knowing them all 25 and because he was in no need to have anyone bear witness about man, for he himself knew what was in man.

    Romans 14:10-12
    10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you also look down on your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of God; 11 for it is written: "‘As I live,’ says Jehovah, ‘to me every knee will bend down, and every tongue will make open acknowledgment to God.’" 12 So, then, each of us will render an account for himself to God.

    1 Corinthians 4:5
    5 Hence do not judge anything before the due time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring the secret things of darkness to light and make the counsels of the hearts manifest, and then each one will have his praise come to him from God.

    You may not accept that this is the current understanding of this matter, however it seems clear enough to me.

    Nearly everyone posting here has agreed that most Witnesses do not believe that only Witnesses will survive Armageddon. Given that most have the opinion that the majority of Witnesses are mind numbed robots and slavishly obedient to the slightest whim of the FDS it is strange that this view is so commonly held. Unless that is, we’re supposed to believe what the 95 Wt says.

  • Pathofthorns

    Thanks for your research and comments Xandit.

    However I am not sufficiently convinced that what you present changes the reality that we do believe that for the most part only Jehovah's Witnesses as a group will survive Armageddon.

    We still teach do we not that:

    Those who practive false religion will be destroyed (in other words all religion other than Jehovah's Witnesses)

    All those who do not worship Jehovah will be destroyed (those who are athiest/agnostics)

    Those who do not recieve Christ brothers (All those who reject our message)will be destroyed.

    In other words pretty much everyone who is not a Witness will be destroyed.

    This is not to say that we have not made allowances for:

    Those who have lived and died in periods of ignorance.

    Those who have not heard the Kingdom message

    We say we do not judge or decide who lives or dies. This simply refers to us not making specific comments regarding specific individuals. But we do make the above general statements.

    The fact that most Witnesses don't believe or won't teach that they are the only ones to survive, simply is due to the fact that we are generally kind people. We don't want our friends, neighbours and workmates to die at Armageddon. It is this heartfelt compassion that compells us in moments of genuine witnessing to speak to them about "the truth".

    Why do Witnesses preach to "avoid bloodguilt" if people's lives were not in danger?
    Why else would we be doing a "warning work"? Would Noah be telling people to get into the ark if he did not believe they would die? Would we be telling people to get into the "ark" (god's organization) if they weren't going to die if they were outside of it?

    Why is there so much urgency to "warn" the people if lives were not "at stake".

    Many Witnesses don't believe that a God of love would destroy even nice people who are not Witnesses. Our official teaching whether we like it or not is that he will. That is disturbing.

    Edited by - Pathofthorns on 13 June 2000 18:51:55

  • waiting

    Dear Xandit,

    "Nearly everyone posting here has agreed that most Witnesses do not believe only Witnesses will survive Armageddon."

    What are you basing that fact upon? I asked in another post a very definite question, and asked for a very definite answer, based upon the Society's teachings, either written or verbal.

    If you missed it, please reply to this hypothetical question:

    "I am one on Jehovah's Witnesses. I do not wish to continue to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses. I have, due to independent Bible study, found that my conscience does not agree with the Society's teachings. I wish to share my thoughts with my friends and family. I am not stealing, lying, fornicating, or doing anything unscriptural. I love Jehovah and Jesus."

    Based upon the Society's teachings, both written and verbal, will I survive Armageddon? Friend suggested me read about another man who will most likely survive Armageddon - who is not a Jehovah's Witness. However, Friend did not tell me that the man lived in the 16th century - long before the Faithful and Discreet Slave as we have come to know the primary ones of the Governing Body. Not a fair comparison.......

    I obviously was asking about me, or persons like me, or anybody who is not an active Jehovah Witness, based upon the teachings, will God kill me? Friend used the example of a man dead for 300 years. I made the wrong assumption that we were talking about living people.

    Again, what do you think it is the primary reason that parents push hard to have their children baptised? It is the dedication - the committment. They surely loved God before they were baptised, as much as they did after baptism. So why the necessary committment, which is now worded so that persons getting baptised are baptised with recognition to Jehovah and Jesus and the Watchtower Society? So God won't kill them at Armageddon - keep them in the Truth.

    Why in the world do you think a normal person would work all week, go to religious meetings, study with your kids, keep the house going, then the only morning that you could possible sleep in or snuggle, you get up, get the kids and spouse up, and go wake up strangers at their door? And before going, you have already paid for the magazines you are giving them, you ask for money from strangers, you pay for gas, and coffee breaks to keep grumbling family quiet, and then give the donation that you perhaps received to the Society?

    And if you're really theocratic, you will then go to the meeting Sunday, forgo lunch until you get "an hour in service" then buy or make lunch for your again grumbling family - then go back to work on Monday. And Monday is Book Study, so it starts all over again.

    Who is their right minds would do this for their ENTIRE LIVES, as some of the older ones have done.
    To be sure, they love Jehovah. But why do the other things?? Because He told us to through our only channel to Jehovah. But why do we do this for decades? Because we have been taught - we know - that persons lives depend on our knocking at the door, placing literature, bible study, etc.

    But do we love absolute strangers that much? NO!!! We do these things because we don't want to be "found somehow disapproved" in the end and God will kill us and our young children. We are doing these things to please Jehovah and Jesus, to be sure, but we are also doing these things to try and save our lives.

    And our Society has taught us that - and we are not brain dead, we are believers. Big difference, well, maybe.

    My poor sister cries every time she speaks about her disfellowshipped son. Why? "Because the time is so short, and he might not have enough time to come back into the organization before Armageddon. I can't bear the thought of him dying." And I am quoting for I've heard this for 10 years from her - and she is sincere and a pioneer.

    Perhaps this whole thread has exasperated us all. And, in my opinion, it is because there is so many double meanings applied to our thinking abilities, our emotions, and our hearts.

    We do not judge other people about their ever- lasting lives. We just must preach to them to come into Jehovah's organization or God will kill them at Armageddon. Because that is their only chance of gaining God's approval. We cannot even judge ourselves, because we have been taught that we may not have properly "run the race until the finish." We just keep trying and trying to save other people's lives so that God will not kill us or them.

    No doubt we love Jehovah. And no doubt that we believe, and have been taught, that He will kill us if we are found lacking at Armageddon.

  • Frenchy

    Dear Xandit. I believe that the girls here have done an excellent job of describing the situation. I'm glad that you are researching, Xandit. I take it that you are serious about this matter. The change of doctrine on the sheep and the goats, however, has nothing to do with that statement. When that time of separation (judgment) comes, regardless of how long before the actual outbreak of Armageddon, whether for the past fifty years or just two days before, what will happen to those that are not JW, according to the WTS? The question dealt with who will survive Armageddon, not when a person will be judged. The change of doctrine about the sheep and the goats was, in all respects, a meaningless change. It changed nothing about our worship. For decades this guilt trip was put on the publishers that the separating work was going on and it was our God assigned obligation to preach the kingdom so that people could identify themsleves as sheep or goats. With that out of the window they knew that something had to be done to keep the flock out in the field so I will quote from that same article:

    While the judging as described in the parable is in the near future, even now something vital is taking place. We Christians are engaged in a lifesaving work of proclaiming a message that causes a division among people.

    Did you pick up on that? WTS language trick. We are not longer invoved in a separtaing work now we are involved in a dividing work! Pray tell, what is the difference? And please note the phrase used in this sentence which calls our work 'lifesaving'. If a person is not going to be destroyed for not being one of us, how is it we are saving his life by making him one of us? Double talk. WTS language.
    Now just to show that this attitude has not changed please note some quotes I posted on another thread. These are from 1997, after the sheep goats thing was changed.

    W97 --There is only one religious organization on this earth that has all these marks of true Christianity- Jehovah's Witnesses! (italics theirs)

    Then there is the 1997 km which has this to say:

    "...he cannot serve God without actively associating with the true Christian congregation."

    So you see, Xandit, nothing has changed. The fact that a great many Witnesses do not really believe this is not proof of the fact that this is being taught by the WTS. Many Witnesses DO believe it as evidenced by the example given on this thread about a mother worrying over her son. I have personal experience with many Witnesses worried sick about their unbelieving mates and children dying at Armageddon. This is further evidence of the double talk. Some witnesses are evidently not picking up on the language as well as it was intended. And contrary to what a lot of people say about Witnesses, we are not all zombies. A goodly portion of our ranks actually do think... they are just afraid of saying so!

  • RedhorseWoman

    With all the changes and flip-flops in doctrine that have taken place, I'm sure that most of us who espouse the belief that there are those who are not JW's who will survive are merely leaving the door open a bit in case the Society changes its stance.

    The preaching work has always been a necessity (and a hedge in case our feelings about those being saved are wrong). Can we afford to take the chance that those who are not JW's will, in fact, die if we don't do our utmost to save them?

    I don't know of many who could bear the burden of looking into the faces of thousands of "walking dead" every day. It's easier psychologically to acknowledge that "Jehovah will ultimately judge them".

    It is also difficult to reconcile this teaching with those we meet. It's much easier to be politically correct (and, yes, evasive) and say that we cannot judge who will survive. The fact is, however, that the official teaching is that we hustle our butts and convert as many as we can, or they, and we ourselves, are dead meat.

    This is also a fantastic hook for keeping the peons in line.....leave us (the ark, the place of safety, the sanctuary) and you die....and your children, and your little dog, too (to quote a line from the Wizard of Oz).

  • Roamingfeline

    Good points. All of you.. and Oh so true. This line of teaching is GUARANTEED to leave you feeling like God is not love, he's a GOD-MONSTER.
    Is it any wonder that ex-jw's have a very high percentage of pagan's and atheists?

  • stillajwexelder

    all that goes around comes around

  • jgnat

    Holy thread resurrection, stilla!

  • JustTickledPink

    hahaa... I love this thread even if it's ancient. But it's true, I believed that ONLY JWs would surivive Armeggedon.... but some JWs find it hard to actually say the words that everyone else will be destroyed that includes their children's kindergarten teacher, their neighbor, their local mailman, all of whom might have been nice to them and maybe helped them out in the past. That is the thing, if anyone believes they aren't going to be destroyed, they might be too nice and too compassionate to be a JW, because the FDS believe they will be destroyed.

Share this