I don't plan on getting baptized, I am on my own but my parents are unrelenting in their will for me to get baptized and whenever I talk with them, they always bring it up.I want my parents to think, more so than the elders.I only want to show that the elders don't know everything and this organization cannot be God's organization when there are teachings that are contrary to the bible.Hence, the mediator question I am bringing up.If an elder can't give me a good answer, then they have no choice but to research it themselves instead of making it that the elders' will always know the answer.
DarkFireWolf
JoinedPosts by DarkFireWolf
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What are the best questions to ask an elder?
by DarkFireWolf inso my parents cannot answer my question and are pretty much pushing me to go to the elders for an answer so i'd like to know what the best questions to ask an elder are.my first question is going to be the mediator one..and if he tells me it's the 144,000 or the anointed, i'll ask him to show me where it says that in the bible.what are some other tough questions for an elder to answer?assuming we can get past the mediator one of course.i'm going to hold off on asking about new light or 607... also, has anyone ever asked about how satan can cause wwi in july if he wasn't expelled from heaven until christ became king in october?i haven't gotten much of an answer to that either..
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What are the best questions to ask an elder?
by DarkFireWolf inso my parents cannot answer my question and are pretty much pushing me to go to the elders for an answer so i'd like to know what the best questions to ask an elder are.my first question is going to be the mediator one..and if he tells me it's the 144,000 or the anointed, i'll ask him to show me where it says that in the bible.what are some other tough questions for an elder to answer?assuming we can get past the mediator one of course.i'm going to hold off on asking about new light or 607... also, has anyone ever asked about how satan can cause wwi in july if he wasn't expelled from heaven until christ became king in october?i haven't gotten much of an answer to that either..
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DarkFireWolf
I can't get disfellowshipped since I'm not baptized.My parents' are hoping that if I ask an elder my questions and he answers them that I will get baptized.I'm only planning on letting the elders' answers speak for itself though.If he can't give a sensible answer, then just maybe they'll see that there is something wrong.
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What are the best questions to ask an elder?
by DarkFireWolf inso my parents cannot answer my question and are pretty much pushing me to go to the elders for an answer so i'd like to know what the best questions to ask an elder are.my first question is going to be the mediator one..and if he tells me it's the 144,000 or the anointed, i'll ask him to show me where it says that in the bible.what are some other tough questions for an elder to answer?assuming we can get past the mediator one of course.i'm going to hold off on asking about new light or 607... also, has anyone ever asked about how satan can cause wwi in july if he wasn't expelled from heaven until christ became king in october?i haven't gotten much of an answer to that either..
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DarkFireWolf
So my parents cannot answer my question and are pretty much pushing me to go to the elders for an answer so I'd like to know what the best questions to ask an elder are.My first question is going to be the mediator one..And if he tells me it's the 144,000 or the anointed, I'll ask him to show me where it says that in the bible.What are some other tough questions for an elder to answer?Assuming we can get past the mediator one of course.I'm going to hold off on asking about new light or 607..
Also, has anyone ever asked about how Satan can cause WWI in July if he wasn't expelled from heaven until Christ became king in October?I haven't gotten much of an answer to that either.
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For those still in -
by Gothicus inhave you noticed whether the overall volume of people singing during the songs has dropped?
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DarkFireWolf
Yeah, on Tuesday night meetings it usually isn't that loud since not that many people come anyways.There's also the fact that there's a new songbook and new lyrics so when you don't know the words, you usually just mumble or hum along which happens almost regularly.
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Timeline for the seventy years?
by DarkFireWolf ini tried to make a little timeline for when the seventy years began and ended that correlates with history..i might take this to the elders to show them that 609-539 is completely possible for the 70 years while 607 dosen't go with history.i've been told by others in the congregation that we choose 607 because 537-70=607 and that jerusalem being destroyed in 586/7 would only mean 50 years of exile.this is going to be a little bit long too as i've added in the scriptures that fit in this timeline.. 609. nabopolassars 17th year.
babylonians defeat the assyrians.
and the 70 years begin with them ruling over the nations.. jeremiah 25:17-26.
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DarkFireWolf
I doubt an elder would actually research it, he'd probably just throw the Watchtower articles 'proving' 607 at me and tell me to read it.I don't plan on taking the whole thing to an elder, just scriptures and dates and raising questions since statements would cause them to shut me out.
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Quick question, did you feel lonely at the meetings even though you were part of the action?
by Theocratic Sedition injust curious, something i've noticed only lately.
i'm in the mix within the congregation, stay late after the meeting is over, converse with quite a few people afterwards, make plans for saturday and sometimes sunday service and yet i feel so awfully alone walking to my car afterwards.
i feel lonely when i'm talking and laughing with people after the meeting.
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DarkFireWolf
Yes, it is very lonely when you talk with them and in the back of your head you know that they only love you and talk to you because you're in the religion and if you weren't, you might as well be invisible to them.
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Timeline for the seventy years?
by DarkFireWolf ini tried to make a little timeline for when the seventy years began and ended that correlates with history..i might take this to the elders to show them that 609-539 is completely possible for the 70 years while 607 dosen't go with history.i've been told by others in the congregation that we choose 607 because 537-70=607 and that jerusalem being destroyed in 586/7 would only mean 50 years of exile.this is going to be a little bit long too as i've added in the scriptures that fit in this timeline.. 609. nabopolassars 17th year.
babylonians defeat the assyrians.
and the 70 years begin with them ruling over the nations.. jeremiah 25:17-26.
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DarkFireWolf
I understand that, if anything, I just want the elders to think a little and try to get them to doubt.Most, if not all, evidence points to 586/7 so there must be something wrong with 607.Biometrics, how did the elder explain it exactly?Was it the same 607 to 537 calculation?
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Timeline for the seventy years?
by DarkFireWolf ini tried to make a little timeline for when the seventy years began and ended that correlates with history..i might take this to the elders to show them that 609-539 is completely possible for the 70 years while 607 dosen't go with history.i've been told by others in the congregation that we choose 607 because 537-70=607 and that jerusalem being destroyed in 586/7 would only mean 50 years of exile.this is going to be a little bit long too as i've added in the scriptures that fit in this timeline.. 609. nabopolassars 17th year.
babylonians defeat the assyrians.
and the 70 years begin with them ruling over the nations.. jeremiah 25:17-26.
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DarkFireWolf
I tried to make a little timeline for when the seventy years began and ended that correlates with history..I might take this to the elders to show them that 609-539 is completely possible for the 70 years while 607 dosen't go with history.I've been told by others in the congregation that we choose 607 because 537-70=607 and that Jerusalem being destroyed in 586/7 would only mean 50 years of exile.This is going to be a little bit long too as I've added in the scriptures that fit in this timeline.
609
Nabopolassars 17th year. Babylonians defeat the Assyrians. And the 70 years begin with them ruling over the nations.
Jeremiah 25:17-26
17 And I proceeded to take the cup out of the hand of Jehovah and to make all the nations drink to whom Jehovah had sent me:+ 18 namely, Jerusalem and the cities of Judah and her kings, her princes, to make them a devastated place, an object of astonishment,+ something to whistle at and a malediction, just as at this day;+ 19 Phar′aoh the king of Egypt and his servants and his princes and all his people;+ 20 and all the mixed company, and all the kings of the land of Uz,+ and all the kings of the land of the Phi·lis′tines+ and Ash′ke·lon+ and Ga′za+ and Ek′ron+ and the remnant of Ash′dod;+ 21 E′dom+ and Mo′ab+ and the sons of Am′mon;+ 22 and all the kings of Tyre+ and all the kings of Si′don+ and the kings of the island* that is in the region of the sea; 23 and De′dan+ and Te′ma+ and Buz and all those with hair clipped at the temples;+ 24 and all the kings of the Arabs+ and all the kings of the mixed company who are residing in the wilderness; 25 and all the kings of Zim′ri and all the kings of E′lam+ and all the kings of the Medes;+ 26 and all the kings of the north who are near and far away, one after the other, and all the [other] kingdoms of the earth that are on the surface of the ground; and the king of She′shach*+ himself will drink after them.
Jeremiah 25:8-11
8 “Therefore this is what Jehovah of armies has said, ‘“For the reason that YOU did not obey my words, 9 here I am sending and I will take all the families of the north,”+ is the utterance of Jehovah, “even [sending] to Neb·u·chad·rez′zar the king of Babylon, my servant,+ and I will bring them against this land+ and against its inhabitants and against all these nations round about;+ and I will devote them to destruction and make them an object of astonishment and something to whistle+ at and places devastated to time indefinite.+ 10 And I will destroy out of them the sound of exultation and the sound of rejoicing,+ the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride,+ the sound of the hand mill+ and the light of the lamp.+ 11 And all this land must become a devastated place, an object of astonishment, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.”’+
Jeremiah 27: 12-14
12 Even to Zed·e·ki′ah*+ the king of Judah I spoke according to all these words,+ saying: “Bring YOUR necks under the yoke of the king of Babylon and serve him and his people and keep on living.+ 13 Why should you yourself and your people die by the sword,+ by the famine+ and by the pestilence+ according to what Jehovah has spoken to the nation that does not serve the king of Babylon? 14 And do not listen to the words of the prophets that are saying to YOU men, ‘YOU will not serve the king of Babylon,’+ because falsehood is what they are prophesying to YOU.+
Jeremiah 38: 17,18
17 Jeremiah now said to Zed·e·ki′ah: “This is what Jehovah, the God of armies,+ the God of Israel,+ has said, ‘If you will without fail go out to the princes of the king of Babylon, your soul will also certainly keep living and this city itself will not be burned with fire, and you yourself and your household will certainly keep living.+ 18 But if you will not go out to the princes of the king of Babylon, this city must also be given into the hand of the Chal·de′ans, and they will actually burn it with fire,+ and you yourself will not escape out of their hand.’”+
607
Nabopolassars 19th year.Destruction of Jerusalem hasn't happened.
605
Nabopolassars 21st and last year, he dies and Nebuchadnezzar becomes king.
Jeremiah 29:1, 20
And these are the words of the letter that Jeremiah the prophet sent from Jerusalem to the remainder of the older men of the exiled people and to the priests and to the prophets and to all the people, whom Neb·u·chad·nez′zar had carried into exile from Jerusalem to Babylon
20 “And as for YOU, hear the word of Jehovah, all you exiled people,+ whom I have sent away from Jerusalem to Babylon.+ 21 This is what Jehovah of armies, the God of Israel, has said concerning A′hab the son of Ko·lai′ah and to Zed·e·ki′ah the son of Ma·a·sei′ah, who are prophesying to YOU falsehood in my own name,+ ‘Here I am giving them into the hand of Neb·u·chad·rez′zar the king of Babylon, and he must strike them down before YOUR eyes.+ 22 And from them a malediction will certainly be taken on the part of the entire body of exiles of Judah that is in Babylon, saying: “May Jehovah make you like Zed·e·ki′ah and like A′hab,+ whom the king of Babylon roasted in the fire!”+ 23 for the reason that they have carried on senselessness in Israel,+ and they keep committing adultery with the wives of their companions+ and keep speaking falsely in my own name the word that I did not command them.+
Daniel 1:1, 2
In the third year of the kingship of Je·hoi′a·kim+ the king of Judah, Neb·u·chad·nez′zar the king of Babylon* came to Jerusalem and proceeded to lay siege to it.+ 2 In time Jehovah* gave into his hand Je·hoi′a·kim the king of Judah+ and a part of the utensils+ of the house of the [true] God,* so that he brought them to the land of Shi′nar*+ to the house of his god; and the utensils he brought to the treasure-house of his god.*+
586/7
Jerusalem burned. Nebuchadnezzar’s nineteenth/eighteenth year.
Jeremiah 52: 12-16
12 And in the fifth month, on the tenth day of the month, that is, [in] the nineteenth year of King Neb·u·chad·rez′zar,+ the king of Babylon, Neb·u′zar·ad′an+ the chief of the bodyguard, who was standing before the king of Babylon, came into Jerusalem. 13 And he proceeded to burn the house of Jehovah+ and the house of the king and all the houses of Jerusalem;+ and every great house he burned with fire.+ 14 And all the walls of Jerusalem, round about, all the military forces of the Chal·de′ans that were with the chief of the bodyguard pulled down.+
15 And some of the lowly ones of the people and the rest of the people that were left remaining in the city+ and the deserters that had fallen away to the king of Babylon and the rest of the master workmen Neb·u′zar·ad′an the chief of the bodyguard took into exile.+ 16 And some of the lowly ones of the land Neb·u′zar·ad′an the chief of the bodyguard let remain as vinedressers and as compulsory laborers.+
2 Chronicles 36:20, 21
20 Furthermore, he carried off those remaining from the sword captive to Babylon,+ and they came to be servants to him+ and his sons until the royalty of Persia+ began to reign; 21 to fulfill Jehovah’s word by the mouth of Jeremiah,+ until the land had paid off its sabbaths.+ All the days of lying desolated it kept sabbath, to fulfill seventy years.+
Leviticus 25: 8-12
8 “‘And you must count for yourself seven sabbaths* of years, seven times seven years, and the days of the seven sabbaths of years* must amount to forty-nine years for you. 9 And you must cause the horn* of loud tone to sound*+ in the seventh month on the tenth of the month;+ on the day of atonement+ YOU people should cause the horn to sound in all YOUR land. 10 And YOU must sanctify* the fiftieth year and proclaim liberty* in the land to all its inhabitants.+ It will become a Jubilee*+ for YOU, and YOU must return each one to his possession and YOU should return each one to his family.+ 11 A Jubilee is what that fiftieth year will become for YOU.+ YOU must not sow seed nor reap the land’s growth from spilled kernels nor gather the grapes of its unpruned vines.+ 12 For it is a Jubilee. It should become something holy to YOU. From the field YOU may eat what the land produces.+
2 Chronicles 36:13,14
13 And even against King Neb·u·chad·nez′zar he rebelled,+ who had made him swear by God;+ and he kept stiffening+ his neck and hardening+ his heart so as not to return to Jehovah the God of Israel. 14 Even all the chiefs of the priests+ and the people themselves committed unfaithfulness on a large scale, according to all the detestable+ things of the nations, so that they defiled the house of Jehovah which he had sanctified in Jerusalem.+
Jeremiah 34:2
2 “This is what Jehovah the God of Israel has said, ‘Go,* and you must say to Zed·e·ki′ah the king of Judah,+ yes, you must say to him: “This is what Jehovah has said, ‘Here I am giving this city into the hand of the king of Babylon,+ and he must burn it with fire.
Jeremiah 37:17
17 And King Zed·e·ki′ah proceeded to send and take him, and the king began asking him questions in his house in a place of concealment.+ And he went on to say: “Does there exist a word from Jehovah?” To this Jeremiah said: “There does exist!” And he said further: “Into the hand of the king of Babylon you will be given!”+
Jeremiah 39:4-9
4 Now it came about that as soon as Zed·e·ki′ah the king of Judah and all the men of war saw them, they began to run away+ and to go out by night from the city by the way of the garden of the king,+ by the gate between the double wall; and they kept going out by the way of the Ar′a·bah.*+ 5 And a military force of the Chal·de′ans went chasing after them,+ and they got to overtake Zed·e·ki′ah in the desert plains of Jer′i·cho.+ Then they took him and brought him up to Neb·u·chad·rez′zar the king of Babylon at Rib′lah+ in the land of Ha′math+ that he might pronounce upon him judicial decisions.+ 6 And the king of Babylon proceeded to slaughter+ the sons of Zed·e·ki′ah in Rib′lah before his eyes,+ and all the nobles of Judah the king of Babylon slaughtered.+ 7 And the eyes of Zed·e·ki′ah he blinded,+ after which he bound him with copper fetters, in order to bring him to Babylon.
8 And the house of the king and the houses of the people the Chal·de′ans burned with fire,+ and the walls of Jerusalem they pulled down.+ 9 And the rest of the people who were left remaining in the city, and the deserters that had fallen away to him, and the rest of the people who were left remaining Neb·u′zar·ad′an+ the chief of the bodyguard+ took into exile to Babylon.+
562
End of Nebuchadnezzar.
557
Neriglissars third year.
556
Nabonidus becomes king.
539
70 years are fullfilled.
Daniel 5:25-30
25 And this is the writing that was inscribed: ME′NE, ME′NE, TE′KEL and PAR′SIN.*
26 “This is the interpretation of the word: ME′NE, God has numbered* [the days of] your kingdom and has finished* it.+
27 “TE′KEL, you have been weighed* in the balances and have been found deficient.+
28 “PE′RES, your kingdom has been divided* and given to the Medes and the Persians.”*+
29 At that time Bel·shaz′zar commanded,* and they clothed Daniel with purple, with a necklace of gold about his neck; and they heralded* concerning him that he was to become the third ruler in the kingdom.+
30 In that very night* Bel·shaz′zar the Chal·de′an king was killed+ 31* and Da·ri′us*+ the Mede himself received the kingdom, being about sixty-two years old.
Jeremiah 25:12
12 “‘And it must occur that when seventy years have been fulfilled+ I shall call to account against the king of Babylon and against that nation,’+ is the utterance of Jehovah, ‘their error, even against the land of the Chal·de′ans,+ and I will make it desolate wastes to time indefinite.+ 13
2 Chronicles 36: 20, 21
20 Furthermore, he carried off those remaining from the sword captive to Babylon,+ and they came to be servants to him+ and his sons until the royalty of Persia+ began to reign; 21 to fulfill Jehovah’s word by the mouth of Jeremiah,+ until the land had paid off its sabbaths.+ All the days of lying desolated it kept sabbath, to fulfill seventy years.+
609-539 = 70 Years completed. This falls in line with both scripture and history. Jerusalem is burned and destroyed in 586/7. Daniel states that God has numbered the days of your kingdom and finished it, and in that very night, Belshazzar dies and Darius gets the kingdom. This finishes the seventy years of Babylon. And then Jehovah’s word is accomplished in 2 Chron. 36: 22, 23 by bringing the people back and allowing them to return to their land.
So how does this look?Comments and criticism would be very much appreciated and any additional information would be too.I've been trying to do my own research on this and matching it up with scripture the best I can since I have trouble believing in 607 if there's no historical evidence that supports this date.Also, if any of you know of something in history that actually supports 607 for being the date of the destruction of Jerusalem, please show me as I haven't found any.
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How do I disprove "New Light"?
by DarkFireWolf ini currently am a jw and my parents are too.they seem either confused or dislike it when i raise questions and recently, when i questioned them about 1925 and 1975, i've been told it's changed due to "new light.
" i don't remember nor do i have very much knowledge of "new light.".
this "new light" just dosen't sit with me and neither do the false prophecies.new light first of all, breaks a scripture in deut.
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DarkFireWolf
Yeah, I'm just going to pick some important points since going through all that would hard.I'll just use their changing light to make them question their New Light.
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January 2013 Watchtower - HAVE JEHOVAHS WITNESSES GIVEN INCORRECT DATES FOR THE END?
by TheStumbler ini was just on the new jw.org site and i have to say, they've done a good job.
it looks pretty sleek and is easy to navigate.
the production values of their magazines (in particular the photos) seems to have improved since i last spent much time on the site.
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DarkFireWolf
I just looked at this today so I guess I'll give my thoughts on it..
2 Thessalonians 2:1,2
However, brothers, respecting the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we request of YOU not to be quickly shaken from YOUR reason nor to be excited either through an inspired expression or through a verbal message or through a letter as though from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here.
Ephesians 5:6
6 Let no man deceive YOU with empty words, for because of the aforesaid things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience.
Did they not deceive people with empty words?
1 John 4:1
Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God, because many false prophets have gone forth into the world.
On the online Watchtower library, inspired expression can mean, "Or 'through a spirit'"
All Scripture is Inspired of God and Beneficial
Likewise in heaven (1) Jehovah God originates his utterances; (2) then his official Word, or Spokesman—now known as Jesus Christ—often transmits the message; (3) God’s holy spirit, the active force that is used as the medium of communication, carries it earthward; (4) God’s prophet on earth receives the message; and (5) he then publishes it for the benefit of God’s people.
Looking back at 2 Thessalonians.."nor to be excited either through an inspired expression or through a verbal message" Watchtower used both inspired expression (by saying their message comes through holy spirit) and verbal message (by giving out false/incorrect dates) to excite and to lie to people and have contradicted themselves by calling themselves "God's prophet on earth." Somehow Deut. 18:20-22 is forgotten..