Posts by konceptual99

55

Here's a view on homosexuality for you...

by konceptual99 in

...right from a pro-jw site in response to a post about the relative seriousness of homosexuality.

all you can do is reason from the scriptures, which you appear to have done.

homosexuality is as serious as bestiality, or adultery and fornication.

konceptual99

I strongly disagree. WT has continued to be compassionate, merciful, understanding, tolerant towards homosexual sinners, never hate or repulsion or rejection -always compassion mercy and understanding for the sinner but not the sin. That is something that I have learned from wt which has made me a better person.

I will concede two points. Firstly, the humanist views presented by Jesus can help engender tolerance, mercy and so on. Assuming those qualities are the preserve of Christians is a different matter of course. Secondly, the WT is generally fairly tame in it's public condemnation of homosexuality and does leave the door open technically for gay people to be accepted in the congregation. The latest Awake article is a case in point.

I will also concede that some Witnesses are about as tolerant as one can be in the constraints of the doctrine. I know I was (as if that's any kind of badge of honour) and I know others with similar viewpoints. This is the exception not the rule.

The reality of what individual Witnesses think on the ground is often far more polarised than the public rhetoric would indicate. Unfortunately not all the content I originally posted has made it through Simon's moderation. I won't try and post the whole thing again but here is a little bit more that is of interest:

If homosexuality is about love, then why can't a homosexual ever feel enough love for someone of the opposite sex? By that same token, is a straight man's love or affection for another man limited because the straight man is NOT attracted sexually to the other man? Does that really make sense? No, it's clear that homosexuality is about attraction, desire, and so forth. It's not about love.

This is a clear refusal to accept that it possible to equate homosexual and hetrosexual relationships. The poster also states "the act itself is against nature and will always be prohibited". There is zero tolerance here. Time and time again I continue to see Witnesses allowing revulsion to homosexuality affect their view of homosexuals in a way that rarely is replicated with hetrosexual immoral acts. In this poster's opinion homosexuality is as unnatural as bestiality and it's very hard to separate the act and the person when conditioned to have a physical revulsion.

55

Here's a view on homosexuality for you...

by konceptual99 in

...right from a pro-jw site in response to a post about the relative seriousness of homosexuality.

all you can do is reason from the scriptures, which you appear to have done.

homosexuality is as serious as bestiality, or adultery and fornication.

konceptual99

...right from a pro-jw site in response to a post about the relative seriousness of homosexuality

All you can do is reason from the scriptures, which you appear to have done. Homosexuality is as serious as bestiality, or adultery and fornication. Actually, the Bible describes homosexuality as a greater sin than adultery or fornication. The reasoning is that the desire for same-sex intercourse is one "contrary to nature" according to Romans 1:24. At least with heterosexual fornication the wrong doers are acting in harmony with the natural desire for the opposite sex.

I'm sorry to post direct cut'n'paste but I think it's important for people to see the thinking that "mature Christians" continue to have regarding homosexuality. It's probably not news to many but does demonstrate that ones continue to treat homosexuality as different to other sins and how blurred the lines around hating the sin and not the sinner really are.

22

May 2, 2016 Re: Entrance Time at Regional Conventions

by wifibandit in

may 2, 2016 to all congregations in the united states branch territory re: entrance time at regional conventions.

konceptual99

What a shame. On my old stints as an attendant I used to love seeing the lame leaping like deer, the old regaining their youthful vigour, walking sticks being cast aside or used as weapons and young children being sent like mini soldiers to duck and dive their way to the best seats.

It was like the New Order.

15

What would happen if...

by StarTrekAngel in

in an effort to excuse yourself from elder persecution, you present an argument.

whether at a jc or just in an average elder shepherding call.

most people who have confronted a jc, have tried to explain to the elders about what they know of the org but the incriminating questions always come up.. when confronted with the question, do you still believe the gb is the f&ds?

konceptual99

My two penneth...

1) trying to present an argument offering views different to the party line is almost certain to get you DF'ed

2) I would handle the loyalty question this way:

Firstly, just say that's a needless question. Reiterate you just have doubts and that's all. Secondly you can always refer back to a choice part of Jackson's answer to the ARC.

That I think would seem to be quite presumptuous to say that we are the only spokesperson that God is using.

They will not look it up there and then. Theocratic warfare works both ways.

Having said that, it's still a sticky wicket.

3) the best way of preventing a DFing is to keep your mouth shut as much as possible. Fade away quietly rather than going in a blaze of glory. Don't be controversial. Don't give elders any cause to consider you an apostate threat. Deflect visits.

Ultimately the less you say to elders the better.

234

New ANTI-GAY video for Kids on jw.org

by ttdtt in

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/family/children/become-jehovahs-friend/videos/one-man-one-woman-marriage/.

disgusting!.

konceptual99

AS for tolerating celibate JWs, forget it... they're already on record as having said it's unacceptable, citing "that's what some of you WERE" ... 1 Cor. 6:9

If you mean two people living together in a celibate relationship then I would agree this would not be acceptable.

If you mean they don't tolerate single, celibate gay JWs the answer is that they do. Bethel is allegedly full of young men suppressing their natural desires . Quite why anyone who is gay would want to be a Witness is beyond me but no one has to sign a bit of paper when they get baptised to say they no longer have gay thoughts and want to be hetrosexual. In fact the latest Awake makes this clear....

In saying “that is what some of you were,” does the Bible mean that those who stopped engaging in homosexual acts never again experienced any homosexual desires? That could hardly be the case, because the Bible also exhorts: “Keep walking by spirit and you will carry out no fleshly desire.”—Galatians 5:16.
Note that the Bible does not say that a Christian will never experience an improper desire. Rather, it says that he or she will choose not to carry out that desire. Christians learn to bring such desires under control, not dwelling on them to the point of acting on them.—James 1:14, 15. [6]
The Bible thus makes a distinction between inclinations and practices. (Romans 7:16-25) A person who has homosexual leanings can control what he allows his mind to dwell on, just as he would control any other wrong desire, including leanings toward anger, adultery, and greed.—1 Corinthians 9:27; 2 Peter 2:14, 15.

15

When will they start spying on tablets/iPads at meetings?

by purrpurr in

jw
friends

following on from a similar post, the use of tablets/ipads at the meetings is a life saver to many a bored or mentally out jw.

i'm sure the borg must know the potential for surfing the net or reading other books instead of reading the meeting material during the meeting?.

at what point are they going to start policing this?

konceptual99

They may do a standard issue router for the KH with traffic logging enabled which would permit traffic to be analysed but there are privacy issues here. I don't think they can be bothered plus one is already taking a big risk by surfing to apostate sites whilst in the hall.

234

New ANTI-GAY video for Kids on jw.org

by ttdtt in

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/family/children/become-jehovahs-friend/videos/one-man-one-woman-marriage/.

disgusting!.

konceptual99

The latest Awake details the organisations view on homosexuality.

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/awake-no4-2016-august/bible-say-about-being-gay/

It repeats several previously stated viewpoints, most of which are pretty easy to understand and follow the WTS reasoning on. Compared to some of the statements you would hear from fire and brimstone preachers, the WTS position is fairly tame on the surface.

I note they continue to be fairly ambiguous position on the homosexuality and biology. Whilst they have become open to the science on this over the years, they continue to equate human sexuality to personality traits such as anger. Even if sort of acknowledging homosexuality can be "deeply ingrained" they assume that it is possible and normal to put that to one side and suppress one's sexuality just as one would try and control one's temper.

Like the video, this is hard to categorise as out and out hate speech or homophobic in the sense that it conveys no "fear" of homosexuals or total non-acceptance of gay people. If you are gay you can be a JW just so long as you do not have any sex.

It is pretty much exactly how I presented the position for years when I was in. I used to work in a UK town with a very high proportion of gay residents and I worked for many years with many gay people. Because of this and my generally younger, more liberally minded attitudes I never had a problem with this and believed the stance on homosexuality was pretty reasonable.

Of course, the hidden messages are not quite so tolerant and this is where the problems occur. For a start, there is still a culture within the organisation that considers homosexuality to be a more despicable sin than other forms of hetrosexual (mis)conduct. People still feel free to come out with some highly aggressive vitriol about gay people going far beyond the position presented publicly. Individuals still have a genuine aversion to gay people, especially if confronted with someone who is loud and proud about their sexuality.

Of course the Witnesses cannot present anything that truly reflects an open, tolerant and modern attitude to homosexuality - their view of the Bible prevents this from ever happening. This is not news in itself but anything that helps people ask about the hidden messages, consider the logical conclusions of following lines of thinking through and question the rhetoric is welcome in my book.

44

Letter # 1 to the Governing Body of Jehovah's witnesses

by WITNESS-FOR-WATCHTOWER-REFORM in

here is my first letter i posted to the governing body.

i also hope that brothers on the writing committee who may be lurking on this site (and have some clout) read my letter and bring in change to this very flawed policy around confession of sins.. enjoy.

the governing body of jehovah’s witnesses.

konceptual99

@fulano
How did you get that experience kc99. Or are you just guessing what elders think? I have been in hundreds of comittes, last years in appeals almost weekly, and never saw this attitude you mention here.

Years of experience as well. There are two parts to the post. Firstly there is the the context of the confession itself.

As I said, the reasons are many and complex however, in general, the individual will either be fessing up voluntarily before any knowledge of the sin is known by the elders or afterwards once confronted about a situation.

The reasons that someone would fess up to something not known again vary, but again can be broadly categorised - either the person is motivated by sincerity and a genuine desire to right a wrong or they have an agenda based around trying to avoid the worst consequences, playing the game so to speak.

In the former case, the sincere feelings come from the control through fear, obligation and guilt, placed on individuals as loyal followers of WT doctrine. I have no desire to go to fess up to the police about nicking a toy from a shop when I was boy but some Witnesses get so hung up about a past sin they feel they have to go a lay bare their guilt to someone they are told has spiritual oversight over them.

In the latter case of those confronted with a sin by the elders then the confession has it's own overtones. If an individual is trying to manifest "godly repentance" then the attitude in the JC is very different to one who does not really care and is simply going through the motions before the inevitable.

The second part of the post relates to the attitude of the elders to judicial matters. To be fair I was making some generalisations but they do reflect experience.

If someone gets a fit of the guilts and comes to an elder years down the line, it's generally a PITA to have to consider forming a JC. As was point out earlier in thread (by yourself I think) the Shepherd book details a get of of jail free card for elders and the same is applied to R&F. If you are/were an elder, would you form a JC if a married couple came to you after 5 years to say they had sex a couple of times before marriage? Even if you did the consequences were unlikely to be disfellowshipping, private reproof at most but even that is unlikely if sufficient time has passed. How many elders would simply say to the couple - "don't tell anyone else, it doesn't really matter now, just pray it away". If they've told two elders then it becomes a hassle as it needs more officialdom.

As for JCs about the sexual misdemeanours of young women - you and I both know the detail that elders go into and how unnecessary it invariably is. You and I also both know that there are ones on the BoE only too ready to jump in with both feet into those cases.

22

What will be the Next Flip Flop?

by Quarterback in

now that the soc has accepted the use of technology.

what is next?

could it be the disfellowshipping?

konceptual99

The org has been very careful to avoid allowing comment against it's official internet presences through the use of publicly visible feedback. Whilst I don't think the use of social networking is out of the question I can't see it until they can prevent comment as it would be open season for every opposer to say whatever they want.

Can you imagine the twitter replies to an announcement of the latest video?

63

New Spiritually Weak Label: Not Using Tablet/iPhone

by Doubtfully Yours in

with last night's meeting it became official: here in the states is a must to keep up with 'jehovah's org' that one fully jumps on board with this tablet/iphone crap.. so, now, all of us that up to this point have refused to follow the wtbts in their electronic/wireless revolution will deal with the browbeating from the 'spiritual' ones.. already receiving lots of grief from hubby and rest of the family/close friends when seen at the meetings with paper publications.

damn it!!!

am i alone in this resistance???!!!.

konceptual99

I felt really weird when I pulled the Green Bible out of my briefcase.....

My old man carried on using his black NWT after they released the revised edition. He used it when reading the WT and got counselled afterwards that he should use the grey one. Idiots.