Posts by konceptual99

74

Convicted paedophile allowed to grill his victims at Jehovah's Witness meeting

by Sapphy in

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/convicted-paedophile-jonathan-rose-grilled-7151197.

oh my goodness, i'm so angry i can't even speak!

"women who complained that former jehovahs witness elder jonathan rose, 40, had molested them as children relived their nightmares in front of him after he was released from jail".

konceptual99

And again we come to this confusion between Law Enforcement and Spiritual Counseling. It is not the job of elders to protect lay members from each other. They are not policemen, they are only spiritual counselors. The rules of proper 'case management' that apply to police do not apply to Witnesses. The rules of Law also do not apply to their Judicial meetings, because Law itself (real Law anyways) only deals with property rights and reparations for damages. The Witnesses are private parties engaging in voluntary discussion -- no property is damaged, no rights are violated and no force is used. They can and should be able to do as they wish so long as these conditions are satisfied.

No! Please re-read my post. I concede that the congregation can do what they like. I understand your point that the rule of law does not have to apply. I agree there is no compulsion to follow the practices employed by the law enforcement agencies and the judicary.

In principle I agree that the elders are not police, are just spiritual counsellers and if that is how the WTS allowed the congregation to operate then I would accept more readily your latter points. The problem is that the elders do end up operting like police. Most Witnesses operate with free will bounded not just by bibilical principles but by the rules and regulations of the WTS, enforced by the elders. There is implicit control but the WTS wants it both ways. They want outsiders to take your viewpoint however the way the congregation is run gives the BOE far more influence over their flock than your description implies.

WT Legal pulls the strings. The elders dance to their tune in matters like this. Oh that it were really voluntary - whatever the context and agenda of the women concerned, the only way they could see that individual considered for disfellowshipping is to do exactly what the BOE (in reality WT Legal in Mill Hill) told them to do. There would have been no negotiation, no compromise.

You can argue that this is the right of the WTS and I, as a liberally minded individual, agree with the principle however there is a growing body of best practice and exprtise on handling these types of cases that the WTS seems hell bent on ignoring. JUst becuase they don't have to follow legal process does not mean they cannot adopt methodologies that should better suppot both the accused and victim.

31

Would blood mgmt improvements have been made without firm stand of JW's

by berrygerry in

http://o.canada.com/news/national/blood-transfusions.

thoughts?.

konceptual99

oh whoopy doo. The medical profession should be swarming to Brooklyn to kiss the collective GB arse in ever so grateful thanks for helping them advance medical science. Never mind the countless deaths, the endess list of those that did not die but had to go through hell trying to explain the inconsitent, the continuous change and illogical reasoning on fractions, cell savers, procedures, components and the like.

The WTS did not make a so called stand on blood for the benefit of medical health. They did it to stand out, be different and in the process ruined the lives of thousands of people. They should be pilloried, not held up as bastions of free speech and saviours of modern medical science.

28

"The end will come when you least expect it"

by stuckinarut2 in

ok, so didnt jesus supposedly say "the end will come when you least expect it"?

(or words to that effect...).

so, with so many witnesses running around in an excited way talking about "100 years since the kingdom...etc" and "it may be our last chance to pioneer etc"..."may be the last international conventions".....doesnt this mean then that the end can not come now??!!.

konceptual99

ffs, even me, the world's worst fader, has worked out it's all just bollocks. I can't even be bothered to point out the utter madness of it all any more. They can all do what the feck they like, I just don't care anymore...

74

Convicted paedophile allowed to grill his victims at Jehovah's Witness meeting

by Sapphy in

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/convicted-paedophile-jonathan-rose-grilled-7151197.

oh my goodness, i'm so angry i can't even speak!

"women who complained that former jehovahs witness elder jonathan rose, 40, had molested them as children relived their nightmares in front of him after he was released from jail".

konceptual99

I agree that a congregation does have a right to persue their own discipline process (the First Amendment does not cover the UK of course). I do not agree that allowing someone in the position of Rose a fair hearing as part of that process somehow makes one an apologist for peodophiles. I simply question that the process followed was appropriate and consistent.

The WTS approach in cases of child abuse favours the accused, allows ample scope for mismanagement by inadequately trained elders on the ground and, if not deliberately disingenuous, does very little to convince outsiders that the WTS is as open as they proclaim.

41

The CO visit this week he says" In August..."

by James Jackson in

jw
friends

up until 5 years ago, the co used to work up their own parts for specfic congregations in their circuits.

everything is up to script, in other words, every co in the country are givings the same talks in the local congregations they visit.

what got me to cringe is when he said at the meeting, trying to encourage everyone to pioneer this august; he said :" you know this october it will be 100 years since gods kingdom began ruling, remember what happen when joshua told the israelites to march around jericho on the seventh day, and what happened when they let out a great war cry?

konceptual99

Don't forget as well that August is the last month of the service year. I bet you any money they are pushing for the largest number of hours, pioneers, tracts (which are now on the report), etc. ever so they can make capital out of the "great shout of praise in this momentous year".

74

Convicted paedophile allowed to grill his victims at Jehovah's Witness meeting

by Sapphy in

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/convicted-paedophile-jonathan-rose-grilled-7151197.

oh my goodness, i'm so angry i can't even speak!

"women who complained that former jehovahs witness elder jonathan rose, 40, had molested them as children relived their nightmares in front of him after he was released from jail".

konceptual99

I can certainly see why serious questions might be raised by the elders. Please allow me to play Devil's Advocate and speak from the perspective of the Defense for a moment.

1) Rose never admitted guilt at any point. He maintained his innocence from the beginning to the end.

I don't really see why that matters. People claim innocence all the time which is why the judicial process seeks to establish the truth of the matter based on evidence and witnesses. In the context of the JC then lets presume innocence. There was still no need or justification for a face to face grilling under the direction of unqualified men.

2) Jane Doe 0 had already made apparently false accusations against Rose in the past, so her involvement in this new case and her behind the scenes coordination with the other women should be a giant red flag.

Fair comment but that was taken into account in the legal process yet there was still a conviction.

3) Rose's behavior around the family of Jane Doe 1 is not consistent...

That means nothing as other posters have pointed out. Guilty people do all sorts of strange things. There are cases of child abduction and murder here in the UK where the perpetrator has been right there in the forefront of the search, acted as a spokesperson for the family and raised their profile not just to the family but to the media.

4) Jane Doe 2 was apparently quite the wild child...

Ok, there is the basis for examining the possibility of a grudge based wild accusation but it would also be unfair to assume that is case.

I accept that the Shepherd book does not expressly forbid a face to face meeting of more than one witness with an accused but it is extraordinary. You might argue this was an extraordinary case and perhaps in the world of WT fuzzy logic the process of allowing the accused to answer a charge was required. There was still no need to have a face to face grilling. This whole WT setup in these situations places the burden of proof to be on the victim and not the accused yet in most other JC situations it's the other way round and the accused is usually afforded little opportunity to counter the evidence of witnesses, especially if there are two. Pistoff has summed this up perfectly.

There were two, because Jane Doe 0's testimony should not have carried any weight at that point.

Accepted however there were still two witnesses and the whole setup was poorly handled. Whatever the context of how these women came to meet with Rose and the BOE, their objectives and agenda it would have been WT Legal, through the BOE, calling the shots. They had control over the nature of the meeting and they failed to manage it in a way that was cognisent of the risk of emotional harm to the victims and in a way that is consistent with how accused ones are treated in other far less serious circumstances.

46

The WT Isn't Going Away (sorry got long)

by LostGeneration in

jw
friends

i've seen more threads and comments in the last week about the "demise of the wt" than in some time.

several were on threads about the donation arrangement and how its going to backfire in some way on the wt.

oh and the lone elder who was pissed in some sort of passive-aggresive manner about it when he presented the resolution.

konceptual99

Never say never but I think the OP is pretty much spot on.

Even if only 25% donate $100 in a whole year thats $200,000,000 a year, now they are at 8,000,000 publishers.

Even if only 10% donate $100 then you have $80,000,000. Are you seriously telling me that the global revenues are less than $80m? The use of volunteers makes the money go further. The fact they own most of their properties outright gives them immense reserves in assets. Paying multiole times over for assembly facilities brings in even more money.

I wonder if this move is also going to protect against a possible move of DCs (sorry RCs) to JW owned venues on a smalller scale. The purpose of making 2 one day CA events has to be to enable greater capacity at assembly halls. Congregations are being encouraged to get teched up with projectors, broadband links and so on. I wonder if there will be so many RC events in large, rented stadiums in 5 years time. Get the R&F to an assembly hall on 3 occasions a year (4 if they do the AGM) and see the money come in on a building already paid for.

74

Convicted paedophile allowed to grill his victims at Jehovah's Witness meeting

by Sapphy in

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/convicted-paedophile-jonathan-rose-grilled-7151197.

oh my goodness, i'm so angry i can't even speak!

"women who complained that former jehovahs witness elder jonathan rose, 40, had molested them as children relived their nightmares in front of him after he was released from jail".

konceptual99

"There are numerous examples of where individuals have faced kangeroo JCs, accused of some sin yet never known who their accusers (forming the legendary two witnesses) are let alone had the opportunity to grill them."

This is again heresay and conjecture. Better would be to find official written rules governing these meetings, and then we could judge how well individual bodies of elders either stick to the rules or disobey them (provided we actually had accurate information about what went on during the meeting).

Not really conjecture. Just ask around on this board. The rules are published in the Shepherd book. They do suggest a meeting between an accused and a single witness. This is not required if there are two witnesses. I can see exactly why this meeting occurred in the world of JW judicial "logic". That does not mean it was sensible or appropriate. It does not mean that there is consistancy between how Rose was dealt with and how others are dealt with in JC situations.

Perhaps they already did take the trial examinations into account, and simply found them lacking.

Perhaps. In fact the way the rules are and the way WT legal works then they probably completely discounted the results of the legal process. Perhaps this is the fair thing to do - seperate the two tracks. That, however, is inconsistant with the rest of society. Individuals criminal records are taken at face value in many, many situations.

Even if you accept that it is fair to ignore the secular judicial process, even if you accept that a JC should operate purely on the basis of 2 witnesses then the rules only allow for a face to face with a single witness. There were three. Again, if you give the WTS process the benefit of the doubt then it is MHO that allowing it to happen in the circumstances as reported is ignorant and naive, symptomatic of the convoluted mess that WT Legal have produced.

I can see the danger in baseless accusation of child abuse. I can see the risks of being forced to accept any testimony when verification is impossible. I don't think that being cognisant of this constitutes being some kind of apologist for peodophiles. That does not mean that I think the WTS is anywhere close to where they should be in how they handle the accused and how they do their best to prevent abuse occuring.

49

FAT BURNERS????

by DATA-DOG in

jw
friends

i need a good fat-burner.

i am getting some serious love handles, and a gross poochy belly.

yeah, yeah...i drink almost every night, and this has been going on for almost 2 years, blah, blah..hic!?

konceptual99

I repeat....

Like many things related to content on this board, listen to Cofty. He is right.

8

JwTalk confirms it's all bollocks

by konceptual99 in

jw
friends

read this earlier on jwtalk in a thread about if the 100 years of the kingdom is part of the 1000 year reign.. actually this question goes back to how the brothers believed and saw things back in bro.

russell's day.

they thought 6000 years of human history and christ's second presence began in 1874, ( their chronology was 100 years off from that which we now accept - this was corrected in the 1940s ) believing such they thought the 1000 year reign began at that time.

konceptual99

Read this earlier on JWtalk in a thread about if the 100 years of the kingdom is part of the 1000 year reign.

Actually this question goes back to how the brothers believed and saw things back in Bro. Russell's day. They thought 6000 years of human history and Christ's second presence began in 1874, ( their chronology was 100 years off from that which we now accept - this was corrected in the 1940s ) Believing such they thought the 1000 year reign began at that time. Interestingly, seeing all the progress the industrial revolution was bringing, they believed these were signs Jehovah was beginning to prepare the earth for all the blessings fortold to be brought about by the Kingdom. That is why they referred to it as " Millennial Dawn", and people began to refer to them as Millenial Dawners.

Well after 1914, and the brothers began to see things did not work out all the way they expected ( this system did not end, and they were not taken to heaven ). As Bro Macmillan once said, they went back to the drawing board to see what was wrong with the way they understond things. As a result, they began to see in time that 1914 was the beginning of Christ's Second Presence. and they advanced in their understanding of Armaggedon and Christ's 1000 year reign. As a result they came to the conclusion, as explained already by other brothers on this thread, that the 1000 years comes after Armeggedon, and the binding and abyssing of Satan. So these are flashes of Scriptural truths that became plain to the brothers early in this past century, and which we now have consistently taught for many years.

I don't think I have heard anything in a very long time that so completely sums up why this whole religion is a load of bollocks as this crock of shite.

How in the name of jumping Jehosophat does this sound even remotely reasonable??