PS: So that this change is not taken casually or overlooked, I urge all persons to write or contact their JW friends and family and call there attention to the May 1, WT Questions from Readers....
Oroborus21
JoinedPosts by Oroborus21
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288
Did the heavenly calling cease in 1935? Not anymore!
by AnnOMaly inwatch out for the questions from readers in the may 1st 2007 watchtower.
"when does the calling of christians to a heavenly hope cease?
" it's a good'un.. included are the statements:.
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288
Did the heavenly calling cease in 1935? Not anymore!
by AnnOMaly inwatch out for the questions from readers in the may 1st 2007 watchtower.
"when does the calling of christians to a heavenly hope cease?
" it's a good'un.. included are the statements:.
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Oroborus21
Greetings All:
I've been discussing this and expecting something like this for a while now. It may not feel like it now, but this "adjustment" is bigger in terms of consequence than the abandonment of the Generation Doctrine.
Blondie hit it on the head when she said:
Looks like they are also pushing out the date of the great tribulation which they say here has to come before the last "anointed" dies. The younger the anointed the later in the future the GT can be.
The previous position of 1935 being the approximate time when the number of the 144,000 anointed were "sealed" (just the latest version of the Shut-Door doctrine) created what I call "The Last Biological Clock" doctrine in the WT.
In summary, the previous JW teachings created a ticking alarm clock in which the GT/Armageddon had to occur during the lifetime of the present 8000+ anointed due to the companion belief/teaching that some of these would still be alive at the conclusion of the GT/Armageddon and the beginning of the Millennial Reign.
Something had to give and I suspected, and even predicted, that it would be the abandonment of the 1935 date.
The immediate consequence of this action is that the non-occurrence of the GT/Armageddon in the present 8000+ anointed lives will be accepted. Also, the continued policy of "replacements" for the anointed can be maintained.
This is like hitting the "snooze" button on the alarm clock. As to how many times R&F witnesses will tolerate it, that remains to be seen.
My prediction like others have said is that the literal 144,000 teaching will be changed to the number being a "symbolic" one, that is it being a symbol of perfect completeness. That will likely be the next major change along these lines of doctrine.
Additionally, the 1914 doctrine will be finally discarded probably about 2017-8. (assuming the present system of things doesn't end on 12-21-12 of course! :-)
All of this just goes to reinforce that it is not these doctrines which are the foundational doctrines of the WT Org power but rather it is the FDS Doctrine. It is that doctrine that all persons in and out of the Organization must work to change in order to push forward the Revolution which is the future of Jehovah's Witnesses.
-Eduardo Leaton Jr.
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Photographs and Illustrations in WT Publications
by RubyStevens inthis is i guess geared more toward bethelites or those in the know.
in the endless sunday meetings i was always facinated by the photographs and pictures in the books and magazines.
is there a large photo studio at bethel were the pictures are taken?
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Oroborus21
If you watch some of the videos, i think its maybe JWs The Organization Behind the Name..you get a few peeks at the process.
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Didn't get to go to college? Want to see what it would be like?
by grey matters inin a move to "democratize education" many top universities are now publishing class information online.
content can range from lecture notes to audio and video of lectures, assignments, and practice exams.
the article i read was called "yale for $0 a day" and originally appeared in the wall street journal.
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Oroborus21
ok. i think i might be saying something maybe provocative...
the real "college" experience is a one time shot.....
It is certainly true that a person can always go to college, full or pt; and one can always obtain the content in a number of other ways, including sefl-study.
But as my high-school lit teacher, Miss Allen, told us seniors as we were looking forward to going off to college...(this was back in 1989 for me)
"Remember kids not everything you are going to learn is in the books"
what she was obviously referring to is the whole "gestalt" of the college experience.
I submit that it is a three-part perfect storm of
1) the learning opportunity itself
2) the "environment" of college
3) this particular juncture in one's life.
1 & 2 could be elaborated upon, but they are not unobtainable by the "non-traditional" student. a non-trad in case you don't know is someone who doesn't proceed directly from high school to college but has some intervening time period. (sometimes due to jobs, military, life, pregnancy, money, whatever the reason)
It is the lack of #3 that is unobtainable by most (but perhaps not all) non-trads. what this refers to is this magical time period when a young person is finally out of the complete control of their previous home environment, they are, probably for the first time, encountering persons who are very different from them and what they were used to, they are also being exposed to different philosophies - and more impotantly, feel a sense of freedom to explore those different bodies of knowledge, perspective and meaning. A person at this age 18-24 roughly is still at the twighlight between teen and adult..not as frivolous perhaps as the past but not yet weighted by the concerns of the working world. (and yeah these are generalizations, every person's college experience is probably different, i am certain that it is, but i think at a larger perspective the above three prongs can be applied generally to the college experience)...and i could elaborate further but you take the meaning...
the above is not to say that a person, a non-trad, can't get their money's worth out of higher education or have an amazing time. I hugely advocate a lifetime of learning and going to college if you can.
This is only to say that there is something truly unique about being a certain age and being in college with peers who are also mostly of the same age and the transition boundary that all are experiencing at the same time between adolescence and adulthood. That experience is not replaceable and that's why it is all the more tragic when persons (such as JWs of the past) forgo the opportunity.
-eduardo
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Why do the local congregations always pay for the D.O. and C.O. visits?
by RULES & REGULATIONS inevery time a circuit and district overseer visited our congregation,the elders always wanted a show of hands from the congregation to see if we would pay for their car expenses and travel.sometimes the congregation would pay for airline tickets.it was always approved.. do you know if the idea came from the local congregations to pay?
did the wts send out letters to each congregation to see if they would pay?
we know that the wts always get what they want.. it's amazing how we paid $250-$400 for each overseer visit and the wts paid nothing..
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Oroborus21
wannaexit, they are EXPENSES not profits! you and others who are calculating how much these guys get are not realizing that..
in addition what is submitted to the congregations for reimbursement is only a fraction of total expenses..the rest is made up by the WT in reimbursements, and provision of lodging, vehicles, etc.
i am glad you corrected yourself Blondie cause when I saw your first post..i was like, uh it goes back at least to Paul cause I know that in addition to taking collections for the poor in Judea..he accepted direct support a number of times...
his big point in Corrinthians 8 is how this support came from the poorer congregations of Macedonia and he was gently chastising the Corinthians who were wealthy by comparison...
although Paul never said so directly, it is probable that Paul received some help from his home congregation of Antioch, it being the one that "sent him out" ...
Paul relied upon he generousity of the faithful and made up the shortfall in a trade as a tentmaker during his ministry...
there isn't a problem with supporting these guys in part..there visit is only twice a year so on the whole its not much from the congregation..
but i do think that the show of hands voting on this and all other similar "congregatonal" matters is a farce...the only time i ever saw a non-unanimous vote was on a vote for expenditures for a computer for the congregation...
-eduardo
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2012 End of the World?
by magdalenefan in2012 is the end of our age according to the mayan calendar.
according to iraq or iran we are already entered into our last seven years according to daniel.
famine, drought, marital problems, bankruptcies, war.
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Oroborus21
its fun to think about...
there is more than just the mayan calendar (and my age in my profile) ticking down to 12-21-12...Time Wave Zero and other things are all converging on that date...so far i have tallied at least a half dozen such convergences/coincidences...
including that the Axis Mundi will be crossed, the sun will be at the mouth of the Oroborus, at the Galactic Central Point, on that date....
if you want to read more
http://www.jehovahs-witnesses.net/creative/lila39.html
makes for some interesting musing by anyone with a millenialist upbringing...
-eduardo
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COMF: Who's still here?
by COMF inhi, ya'll.
i left jw's voluntarlily in 1987, still believing but thinking something was wrong with me that caused jehovah to reject me in spite of my best effforts.
after that it was "let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die".
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Oroborus21
hey COMF...i too enjoyed your participation inthe H20 halcyon days...i especially liked that you took your moniker from one of my favourite poems..Invictus..
good to see you doing well....are you really in Albania??
-eduardo
PS: Outaservice, i think you might be referring to Fred Hall?
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Evaluating Raymond Franz
by greendawn inwhat do you think of ray(mond) franz?
i have seen here some people critisise him as not being a really heartfelt opponent of the wts, but my view is that he was quite honest about his expressed motives against the cult.
with his revelations he gave a lot of momentum to the ex jw movement (the apostate organisation according to the jws) and offered valuable assistance to those seeking to shake off the ideological and social dependance on the oppressive cult.
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Oroborus21
Ray is a Prometheus among us...
"Prometheus Among Us" Who would challenge the gods,
Or question what is divine?
Prometheus, the fool, who proved he cared,
Prometheus, the wise, who stooped to share,
A spark of truth with a darkened world,
A means to eat and temper the cold,
Prometheus, bearer of the sacred fire,
Prometheus, called to a purpose higher,
Than himself or other Titan born,
Virtuous flesh eternally torn,
Prometheus bound and made transfixed,
Prometheus among us, within our midst,
A society of Prometheans well intentioned,
Constantly stirring fresh contentions,
But Zeus is watching well to smote,
By mighty quake and thundering bolt,
All foes seeking reformation,
Who dare to leave their proper station,
And yet Truth be their admirable goal,
Prometheus too revealed his soul,
And staked his life upon this claim,
He thus lost his freedom but gained a name,
As a champion of enlightened duty,
Perhaps therein lies the hidden beauty.
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JW's participate in Government talks with other religious bodies!
by Atlantis in(please delete if already posted).
http://www.online.ie/home/news.aspx?newsid=636132 religious bodies in talks with government.
ground-breaking talks between the government and religious bodies began in dublin today.. .
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Oroborus21
Carla,
Setting aside the issue of whether such conduct might affect other congregation members' consciences, (because as you know, often JWs voluntarilly restrain their liberty even though they are free to act, out of this concern), I do see a big difference between voting and other non-voting "participation."
It doesn't matter whether it is a Senator, a City Council, the Mayor or the School Board, (or even the President holding a "town hall" meeting), if what is occurring is that these government authorities are asking for community feedback, many JWs would not consider it a violation of their Christian neutrality to be present or even to step up to the microphone and voice an opinion. (The situation in the Judiciary branch of government of filing Amicus Briefs is essentially parallel, and we all know that the WTS has done that on several occassions.)
True, many JWs would do not do this, but usually this is due to the "other's conscience/appearances reason" mentioned above or because they are lazy or because they simply don't understand that such participation is not objectionable.
In contrast, as the old JW saw goes, "voting" represents a direct wish and approval of human rulership which is contrary to the wish of Christ's rulership and his lawful right to rule over mankind. (though isn't it the case that even the prohibition against voting has now been relaxed among JWs?)
Anyway, the above is with respect to general situations. It seems even more likely that if the setting has to do with religion (as in the case of this thread with reference to teh Irish conference and religion) , that JWs would be even more likely to participate for the reasons I stated in my first post. It would not be surprising if they even viewed the situation as an opportunity to take their witness "before Kings and rulers" in fullfillment of scripture.
-eduardo
PS: I would dispute your meaning of "neutral" in this context. Certainly, JWs can feel free (and do) "complain" to the government. Whether it is filing a complaint with the local authority about their cable bill, to complaining to the city manager about a pot-hole on their street, to filing a formal condematon against a tyrannical dictator for how she is treating JWs in her country....your view that "neutrality" means absolute complete silence would preclude any of these activities and JWs' history has shown that they do not agree with that understanding of what it means to be politically neutral.
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'JESUS TOMB FOUND' IN JERUSALEM
by Dansk inuk versioninternational version</form>|about the versionslow graphics|accessibility helpthe news in 2 minutes.
news services.
your news when you want it .
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Oroborus21
howdy,
just wanted to add my two cents as when i heard this news today a few of the following thoughts came to mind...probably others have already covered these but i didn't see the other threads started on this topic..
my first thought was that in the very early days of the Christian sect both the Roman civil authorities and the Jewish establishment would have had very strong incentives and desires to squash the blossoming of the Christians. Almost nothing would have served that purpose better than to easily overthrow the central galvanizing tenet of the new faith, namely the belief in the Resurrection of Jesus; and that most easily would have been done by producing the body or bones of Jesus for the world to see.
Thus, when the resurrection claim first circulated, if the tomb of Jesus were known, then the Romans and/or the Jews would have exposed the teaching by producing these ossuaries.
It is easy to say..well the problem is that it wasn't known...and after all that is essentially what the Gospels tell us right (I will come back to that part in a moment).
Ah! but here is the rub and the second part of my thought.
The thing is that SOMEONE placed these bones into the ossuary and placed the ossuary into the tomb. (I could be wrong but I think the process is to let the remains dissesicate (sp?) and then to later take the bones and place them into the ossuary.)
Now let's assume that these ossuaries or an any ossuary did contain the remains of Jesus for the sake of discussion. If that were so then we are left with only two possibilites.
1) either the person(s) who took care of the remains didn't know that they were Jesus' (which seems pretty unlikely)
or
2) they did know that these were the remains of Jesus.
So since it seems unlikely that the person(s) taking care of these arrangements would not have known who they belonged to, we should assume that they knew that they belonged to Jesus. Thus this again leads us to two possibilities:
1) either they were a BELIEVER (aka follower of Jesus)
or
2) they were not a believer
So then let's analyze this issue a bit.
If the person(s) was a believer or follower of Christ they would have known that the central tenet of their faith, the resurrection, was false. And that seems really crazy to say that they were a believer because either they knowingly helped perpetuate the lie fof the resurrection or they somehow disconnected the fact and their knowledge with their belief. (ummm sounds familiar...) either way, it doesn't seem like they would hae any long-term incentive to maintain the secret regarding jesus' tomb..word would have eventually got out and the anti-Chrisitan forces would have had their bodily proof against the resurrection.
on the other hand, if the person were not a believer in the first place....what incentive would they have had to maintain the secret for any duration...and thus the secret would have gotten out it seems..
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So there are some givens and assumptions in the above (a few questions begged), but overall it seems highly unlikely that if there were actual remains of Jesus that whoever did take care of them would have been able to keep that a secret, generation to generation. It seems almost evident that at some point the secret would have gotten out and I don't mean in the year 2007 A.D. :-)
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The problem that the Jews, and to some extent the Romans, had was that there were no remains to be found. The bible says that the Jewish leadership had their own guards (who were guarding the tomb of Jesus immediately after his death) and that they bribed them into fabricating a story that while they were asleep, Christ's followers came and removed the body (and presumably hid it for all eternity). (See: Matthew 27:62-66, 28:11-15)
Interestingly, Isaac Asimov says that this story in the bible has to be complete hogwash for the simple reason no one can claim both to be asleep (unconscious) and simultaneously claim to give testimony that they can both positively identify a person or persons and state what it is they did!
It's a good point.
Think about it. The guards have to say that they were completely asleep. For if they were awake or awakened at any time during the theft, they have no excuse for not doing their duty and preventing it. On the other hand, if they were completely asleep, there is no way they could positively claim to know who it was that removed the body and when it was that the body was removed the body.
[Certainly, if i had someone on the stand who stated that while they were sleeping in their room, their roommate came into their room and stole $50 bucks out of their wallet, it would be pretty easy to demonstrate how such testimony would be a factual impossibility. [the testimony that is not necessarily the act itself.]]
Asimov's point is that it is just moronic to say that the Jews would have even suggested that the guards provide such ridiculous testimony and thus the Bible's account that they did so is self-evidently false. And indeed when properly understood, it does seem pretty silly to expect that anyone would have believed such testimony or that such an "explanation" would have become popular "among the Jews down to this day."
I don't know what the explanation is for this strange bit of reasoning in Matthew which Asimov has so deftly exposed.
Maybe, at the time the gospel was written, the idea that it was Christ's disciples who stole and concealed his body was popular among the Jews and it was used as negative propaganda to thwart the Christians. When the gospel was written, the writer "elaborated" and created an "origin" for this idea but messed up in not realizing how illogical and factually impossible his explanation was. It certainly is one to puzzle over.
But in any case, the Gospel account of this "theft story," despite its rational-logical flaws, does seem to reveal one truth, namely that the Jews didn't know where the body of Jesus was.
And this brings us back again to the issue of a tomb/ossuary of Jesus. If the Jews didn't know then either his disciples knew or a non-believer handled the remains without knowledge of whose they were (and we can only surmise was evidently also illiterate or blind since Mr. Cameron and fellows' claims rest mostly upon the "inscriptions' of the names of the osuaries occupants). This latter case, again seems very unlikely. And thus again we have the problem of how to explain disciples who would follow Jesus or associate as Christians despite knowing the truth about the bones.
Which brings us finally to the final possibility, the one which is accepted by Christians...and which even the bible text suggests that the Jews & Romans, those persons with a high incentive to expose a resurrection tale, could not produce any remains of Jesus ---because there were none to be produced. Hence the resurrection.
-Eduardo
PS: It is often said that JWs don't believe in the bodily resurrection of Christ. JWs believe that the actual body was likely dematerialized and that Jesus was resurrected as a spirit, and that until his final ascension to Heaven (the spiritual plane) he materialized a body in some instances a replica of his old one, crucification wounds and all, and in other cases one which was not as recognizable (that latter part is disputable.)
PPS: I think it still has to be seen whether these ossuaries will not turn out to be completely bogus like the "James ossisuary" that was highly touted recently.