the recent topics addressing the shamefully bigoted talk by jw gb member, anthony morris, on the subject of homosexuality got me thinking.
what the heck is up with the gb's obsession with this subject?.
as far as i can determine, jesus never said a single thing in reference to homosexuality.
jwfacts wrote: "[The Governing Body] know that if a person is disfellowshipped for homosexuality it is very unlikely they will return."
Amen to that! I was disfellowshipped for homosexuality and I have no intention of ever returning. I have spoken to other gay ex-Witnesses who feel exactly the same.
Quendi
the recent topics addressing the shamefully bigoted talk by jw gb member, anthony morris, on the subject of homosexuality got me thinking.
what the heck is up with the gb's obsession with this subject?.
as far as i can determine, jesus never said a single thing in reference to homosexuality.
The Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses has been preoccupied with homosexuality for decades going all the back to Nathan Knorr's presidency if not before. Knorr used to conduct midnight raids in Bethel with the aim of finding Bethelites in flagrante delicto. Those found in "compromising positions" were summarily disfellowshipped and dismissed from Bethel. But despite these raids outing some, Knorr's efforts to stamp out the small gay community at Bethel ultimately failed. There is still a gay cell in Brooklyn as well as at Wallkill. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that there is a third one at Patterson.
Leo Greenlees was a Governing Body member who was a homosexual. When this was discovered, he was dismissed from both the Brooklyn headquarters and the Governing Body. But he was not disfellowshipped. Instead, he was assigned to the circuit work in the New Orleans area, a post he held for some time. I don't know when and where Greenlees finally died, but I do know that his sexual orientation was kept secret. I can only wonder what clandestine affairs he had at world headquarters and how he was finally outed. Someone else may have that information.
There have been doubtless many others in the upper echelons of the WTS who were or are gay men. Having been a gay Witness myself, I know the self-loathing and internalized homophobia these men are feeling. There are some who maintain that Knorr himself was a gay man and this was the reason for his own denunciations of homosexuality. His marriage has been characterized as being devoid of the normal passion one would expect. Suspicion has also been cast on Fred Franz who was a lifelong bachelor and never evinced any interest in women. But lack of interest in women does not mean a man is gay, either.
The point I wish to make is that gay men have been or currently are present at every level of the organization. For the most part they have remained deeply closeted, but that does not mean that their sexual identities aren't known to a select few. Many of these men have entered into marriages that can hardly be characterized as happy or fulfilling. But they have done so for the oldest reason in the world: avoiding being outed and suffering embarrassment and disgrace. Others have opted for celibacy, a choice that leads to frustration and depression. Despite this, these men believe they are better off and will maintain their present course.
Now the Governing Body knows all this and I am sure they fear and loathe the gay men at headquarters and in the organization at large. Are some of them gay men themselves? That is entirely possible and that may well account for their frequent and vehement denunciations of LGBT people and their way of life and love. The organization's history has a gay component which its leaders do not want to admit or acknowledge. So the strategy will be to denounce as frequently as possible and to deny everything at all times. But despite these efforts, I do not believe they will succeed in keeping this secret. The Internet has been the key to opening a Pandora's box full of woes for the organization. That box is not yet empty. More and more of its contents are getting out and finding people who want to share them with others. In the ancient myth of Pandora's box, after all its evils had been released into the world, one occupant remained. That was Hope, hope that eventually all the evils would be overcome. In the WTS situation, Hope does not remain. The troubles being loosed upon the organization will not be resolved, but will ultimately destroy it. That may not happen in my lifetime, but I am convinced that it is inevitable.
Quendi
10 years ago i stopped attending jehovah's witness meetings for good.
walked out of the kingdom hall cold turkey never to return based on injustices i observed among others and myself at the hands of elders giving out not god's counsel but personal opinions as counsel .
some of them weren't even giving out wt society counsel- just personal opinions.
I don't visit this site or post to it as much as I used to, but I was very happy to read your thoughts, flipper. I have always enjoyed them and this thread has been no exception. June 10th will mark my fourth anniversary since I last set foot in a kingdom hall. I have been on an upward trajectory ever since and have no regrets about my decision to forsake this cult forever. You have been a wonderful source of counsel and strength. I wish you and yours every happiness and success in the years ahead. By the way, today (25 January) marks my first lesson with a great classical guitar teacher that I have had in some twenty-five years. There aren't words enough anywhere to describe my excitement and joy about returning to the study of an instrument I truly love. Your words of encouragement played a major part in this development.
Quendi
i think the organization is worried most about how jws will stay loyal to their families even as it rejects the admonition of the gb and elders..
I found the remarks by scotoma and minimus to be especially interesting because they touch directly on the decline and fall of the WTS. I was never considered or appointed to any office in the congregations I was a part of except as a regular pioneer. I always thought it strange that the Watchtower Study conductor and the Theocratic Ministry School overseer regularly talked to me about public speaking and reading. I was always considered to be the best speaker, reader and teacher in any congregation I found myself in. Despite that, I was consistently passed over and never encouraged to reach out.
Looking back on all of that now I can only say that it was a blessing in disguise. Had I been made a part of the servant body in a congregation, I shudder to think what I would have been exposed to. The accounts I have read on this board as well as the talks I have had with individuals has convinced me that I was much better off being excluded. After I left the pioneer ranks--some thirty years ago--I remained a regular publisher who never served but was always consulted when the elders or ministerial servants were stumped for answers to questions they had no idea how to research. Envy, racism and fear were strong factors in my not being used, but I have also believed there were other reasons I was not aware of.
I also have to agree with the belief that it is the modern world that is the biggest source of fear for the WTS. That world has made information available at an unprecedented scale. It has also exposed people to thinking and made available choices they never dreamed existed. As long as the prime source for view-shaping information was the WTS through its speakers and publications, the rank-and-file Witness was content to go along with the WTS program. But when people began to learn that the world wasn't some Satan-haunted environment, that other views, cultures and ways of life were valid in their own right, and that true human love could be expressed in various and different ways, they were forced to change their own thinking and to painfully shed long-cherished attitudes. The WTS has reacted with repression and backlash in the hopes it can root out these elements among its adherents. They may find success in the underdeveloped world, but it is clear that elsewhere, their religion is seen as the retrograde and tyrannical system it really is.
Quendi
i have recently revived my interest in the night sky.
there are a lot of great sights you can identify with just a pair of binoculars.
i am currently relearning how to navigate my way round all the constellations and find some of the best objects.. i live out in the country so we get almost total darkness right outside my front door.
I once owned a 4.5 inch (114 mm) reflector that I named "Stella." I would take my housemate of that time along with several friends and drive up to Rocky Mountain National Park which was only 40 miles/65 km from my home in Boulder back then. I still remember the look of awe on the face of one friend as he gazed up at the Milky Way for the very first time. He had mistaken it for a bright cloud and wondered why it did not move. It was only when he looked at it through Stella and saw how the cloud resolved itself into a band of countless stars that he began to understand some of the wonder of the night sky. Later that night, the International Space Station zoomed overhead giving all of us an additional thrill.
I have gazed upon the Moon's surface and seen mountains, craters and canyons, casting shadows in the harsh sunlight falling upon them. I have seen Jupiter being orbited by its four largest satellites and the "Lord of the Rings", Saturn, along with some of its dozens of moons. I no longer own Stella but hope to eventually repair and put into operation an eight-inch reflector that has fallen into my possession. I have christened this telescope "Astrophel" and will use it to increase my understanding of the night sky. I have downloaded the Stellarium as well as Celestia astronomy packages and will acquire the Starry Night software program before spring. Astronomy and mathematics were the first sciences I learned to love and appreciate. They are interconnected and have given me many hours of stimulation and joy.
In addition to the software packages others have recommended, I will put forward the heavens-above.com website as one also worthy of attention and use. It will give any amateur star-gazer additional tools to facilitate a study of the cosmos.
"Ad astra per aspera"
Quendi
my friends,.
i need your counsel on a personal matter, and i hope you will give it in love.
as some of you know, i was disfellowshipped six years ago, but it wasn't until june 2010 that i made up my mind never to return to the wts.
@PaintedToeNail: Thanks for your kind remarks. I'm sure that you will find the kind of friends you need. They are out there. I am glad that I know you and I want to wish you the very best in your life away from and out of the Witness cult.
@Oubliette: You know how much I value your counsel and wisdom and I am deeply grateful for our friendship. I can only hope that Mark will be able to endure this trial. I also hope that he will seek me out after his release. I don't know what else I can do for him, but I hope that it will strengthen and support him.
Quendi
my friends,.
i need your counsel on a personal matter, and i hope you will give it in love.
as some of you know, i was disfellowshipped six years ago, but it wasn't until june 2010 that i made up my mind never to return to the wts.
Hello All!
I haven't been posting much, but I wanted to revive this thread with an update. To give a short synopsis, I started this discussion to solicit advice and reaction about my efforts to revive the friendship I had with a Witness named Mark whom I have known for more than thirty years. We last saw each other in July 2011 when I paid a surprise visit on him and his mother. Our conversation was very heated at first because neither one of them were happy when I told them I would never return to Jehovah's Witnesses. But after that initial confrontation and subsequent argument, matters settled down and we had an encouraging talk.
Much has happened in the thirty-month span since that meeting. I lived for nearly a year in Alabama and cared for my mother. In January 2013, I moved back to Colorado and have found work as a high school math teacher in suburban Denver. I'm recovering economically and have done well in my new job. For my friend Mark, however, matters have gone from bad to worse. When we last spoke face-to-face, Mark was disfellowshipped but was actively seeking reinstatement. After I returned to Colorado, I inquired about him through a few mutual friends. He had dropped off everyone's radar and I could learn nothing about him. I had a long debate with myself about how I should proceed.
I decided to ask friends to contact his mother. She will be 84 in March and her memory is failing. When my friends asked about Mark, she gave evasive answers but their nature told me that Mark was in some kind of trouble. Finally, I called her myself. Before doing so, however, I followed the advice of a friend in the church I now attend and checked on the Internet for some information. That is where I learned that my fears were true. Mark is in jail although I do not know how he got there and for how long he has been incarcerated.
When I talked to Mark's mom, she had completely forgotten that I am disfellowshipped and so she talked to me like the old family friend I have been for more than thirty years. She gave me Mark's cellphone number but wouldn't disclose his whereabouts. So I called him and left a message. After waiting two days for a reply, I decided to call again and finally talked to him on New Year's Day. To say he was surprised to hear from me was an understatement. However, he was silent about his situation and I chose not to bring it up, telling him instead that I would respect his refusal to talk about it. I did not mention that I already knew where he was.
My primary message to him was that I wanted him to realize that I still counted him as a friend. I told him that I missed him and loved him and wanted to see him when his circumstances would allow this. I also told him that he could call me for any reason whatsoever, and that I would look in on his mother from time to time as well. I know that the congregation has failed to do much for her in that regard. Mark was happy to hear that I wanted to do this. We talked a little bit about old times and I repeated my offer of help and assistance. Then we said goodbye.
I don't know if I'll hear from him soon. At the very least, however, he knows that I'm out there and haven't abandoned him. I don't know how long he has been in jail or the length of his sentence. I'd like to visit him when my own circumstances allow, but I don't know how that can be arranged. I suppose if I contact the jail I can get that information. In any case, I am glad that I have made the effort to reach him again. He needs as many friends as he can get now, and I very much doubt the congregation elders have extended themselves in his direction. For all I know he never was reinstated, but even if he was, his jail term certainly would have meant that some kind of "discipline" would have been meted out to him. So I doubt the religion has been a source of comfort and strength to him.
So that is how matters now stand. I wanted to share this with you and welcome your comments.
Quendi
i ask this respectfully, and do so after watching a favorite show of mine's season opener which had a new years storyline.
hollywood tends to make movies and television show episodes centered around holiday themes appear warm and blissful.
while i'm thankful to have never participated in such holidays, i can't deny my curiosity about ex-jws that do celebrate.
When I left the organization, I initially refused to celebrate the holidays because of their “pagan” origin. I also knew that JWs weren’t the only Bible-based religion to shun these celebrations either, so I felt comfortable in continuing to do so. But I have since come to embrace some of them. Christmas, birthdays and Thanksgiving are now precious to me. I still don’t observe patriotic holidays but don’t condemn those who do. That is because I have adopted a “live and let live” attitude since finding my freedom from the Witness cult.
But even when I was a Witness, I could not develop a real hatred of the holidays in my heart. I saw them as many others do: an occasion for families and friends to come together and celebrate love and mutual ties. I also believe that feasting and merrymaking are good things in themselves when not carried to excess and that they are vital and necessary for human well-being.
So while I was a Witness, I would respond to holiday greetings with a smile, a word of thanks, and an inquiry into what my well-wisher planned to do. That always led to wonderful conversations about the anticipated joy of family and friends coming together, the exchange of gifts, and celebrating the good things in life. I now find it obscene that the WTS not only chooses to ignore these important aspects of living, but refuses to allow its followers any occasion for doing so. No wonder many Witnesses have faux Thanksgiving and Christmas celebrations. They know as well as anybody else how special occasions add joy to living and should be adopted and promoted, not demonized.
Quendi
i was a sister(tm).
i was only allowed to give talks to my householder.. you brother's(tm), all eyes were on you.. what was that like?.
did you enjoy it?.
Despite being the best public speaker and best teacher in the congregations I associated with, I was never appointed as either a ministerial servant or an elder and so never gave an instruction or a public talk. I gave talks only in the Theocratic Ministry School. It was frustrating to have everyone--elders included--tell me what a fantastic speaker and teacher I was and then never to give longer talks. I didn't understand the reason for this until after I left the organization when a Witness I knew told me that it was shear jealousy on the part of the servant body that withheld those "privileges" from me. Ah, well! Now that I'm out, it no longer matters, but it did while I was a Witness, particularly when Theocratic School overseers would come to me for counsel on how to give a talk!
Quendi
It was the aggregate "personal experience" of decades under communism that led to its collapse in Europe. Dis-member succinctly outlines what many have similarly endured as Jehovah's Witnesses. The organization continues to dehumanize its members. What has kept it going has been the inertia on the part of the majority of its rank and file who simply cannot imagine life outside its confines. But I believe a critical mass will be reached eventually that will lead to the kind of revolt that will topple the cult. The unenlightened leadership of the current Governing Body may stoke the discontent we are hearing about. I would say that currently it is at a low simmer. However, the heat is increasing and that will eventually lead to a full, rolling boil among the publishers. I very much doubt that the current leadership is prepared for this, no more than the communist leaders of a generation ago were.
Quendi
