Posts by Cicatrix

21

Do you think JW men treat women worst than 'other' men in power?

by BLISSISIGNORANCE in

jw
friends

i ask this question because we often hear about jw men (bros., elders, servants, co's etc.

) treating sisters as lower and weaker beings than themselves.. but i wonder if it's not just a male-dominant world problem.

i didn't grow up as a jw so every male i met for 30 years was not a jw.

Cicatrix

No I don't. I'm in college, and I'm amazed at the number of other women who have never been witnesses that are experiencing abuse. Statistics say it's something like one in ten women, and that seems to be the case at school. And the incidences of abuse for these women seem to escalate once they enroll in school. The men who are controlling them know that when the women graduate, they will be more financially independent and less controllable (just yesterday a friend called and told me she had to leave school, because her husband was disrupting her studying, then got so violent she had to have him removed from her home. My friend was told by a female instructor that because she couldn't make it to class that day, she was on probation and would be kicked out of her program if she was late or couldn't make it to class again for any reason. Now that she is going to be the sole breadwinner, she knows she can't work, care for her small children, and finish school. She was one semester away from her degree!) I live in a rural area, and I don't know if this is a factor in the frequency of this type of garbage or not

A conversation we had in Poli Sci the other day was very telling. My instructor is originally from another country, and became a citizen a few years ago. He was saying that one thing that surprised him that he has observed about the United States was that here in this democractic country that espouses equality for all, women are still being paid less than men to do the same job, and being passed over for promotion in favor of men. A number of men in the class objected to that, stating that things were getting better. I pointed out an example that I knew of in which a woman who was the sole support for her son was passed over for promotion and told that they were giving it to the man because he "had a family to support." One vocal guy nastily commented that the man was probably more qualified than the woman. I told him that no, the woman had worked there much longer than the man, and she had a college education, while the man did not. He just gave me a dirty look.

The instructor then posed a question to the class concerning whether or not it is appropriate to insist on leaving a poster of a semi-nude woman up on the wall in one's office if a woman objected to it. The men went into a speil that it was perfectly acceptable, because the human body is "art", etc. The instructor then asked, "Okay, what if a woman insists on having a poster of a "well-built," comparably dressed man on her wall ?" The room was silent. The instructor then said "So it's not about beauty is it, it's about power."

I agree that religion seems to be responsible for the attitude.In my experience, religious men and women seem to view me as some kind of serious threat when I say I'm not religious.

15

Looking Forward To Ur Free Life Or Stil Reflecting And Living A Bitter Past

by m0nk3y in

jw
friends

having grown up in the jw teaching till the age of 21 and having an alcoholic/abusive father not to mention other f*%$ed up past elements of my life .. i have to say i am overall looking forward to my future as i'm now free of jw oppression.

but what i have notice a great deal in this forum is there alot of x-jws that are very bitter about their past lives and seem completely focused on how f*%$ed up their lives have been.

they don't seem to have an ounce of positveness to their attitude and this concerns me.

Cicatrix

Actually, the frank discussions are what kept me coming back to this board when I was leaving, and what keeps me coming back still. People who haven't been in the organisation have a hard time understanding what it feels like. I find that this is a place I can relate. I go off on a bitter diatribe occasionally here, but that doesn't mean I walk around with a little cloud over my head every day, every where I go. I doubt I'll ever entirely get over having lost twenty years of my life to what I thought was a noble cause, only to find out it was a sham. But it has taught me to appreciate sweet freedom everyday of my life and make the most of it.

Would you tell a Holocaust survivor to "just get over it" ? Many people here have lost loved ones. They have died needlessly for following the rules of the Watchtower Society regarding such things as blood transfusions, and not seeking psychological care for mental illnesses, only to watch the society relax its stance on these issues.Many, many people have been driven to dispair and even suicide by being shunned and/or having their families torn apart by the rigid rules of a panel of men in Brooklyn. Many women have suffered severe emotional damage from being told by a group of men that they were raped or beaten because they weren't "obedient" enough.Children and/or their parents and other very concerned people have been disfellowshipped for reporting child sexual abuse.These are just a few of the myriads of issues we recovering jws must deal with.

What should we do, cover over all these issues the way the Watchtower Society does, and pretend that they don't exist, or are just minor little annoyances? The way that those who would just as soon "forget" the holocaust do?

I think having this place to be able to let out all of the hurt helps me to be able to get on with my life outside of cyberspace. I spent too many years having elders and others in the congregation tell me how to feel and how to act, and being chided for not acting accordingly or "putting on the new personality"tm soon enough.

Life isn't all sweetness and light. It has two sides, and I think they are fairly represented here. There's as much laughter and silliness and joy and encouragement as there is commiserating.

34

Have You Ever Written A Letter To the Society?

by minimus in

jw
friends

when i was a kid, i remember my family regularly visiting other friends, including a brother that was the bible study servant.

every week, he would send a different letter to the society on a variety of subjects.

when our families would meet, he would ask us the question and we would do research or give our opinion on what we thought the society's answer was going to be.

Cicatrix

When I was studying, I wrote a letter to the society regarding the oral sex issue. I told them that my husband was not a believer, and wouldn't take kindly to my refusing him. They wrote me back and told me simply that it was up to each couple to decide what they would do in this matter. This was in 1983, and their response was a direct contradiction to what was in the Watchtower shortly before I wrote them!

Maybe because I was not yet baptised they didn't feel the need to reinforce the party line. I don't know.

Unfortunately, when I became more indoctrinated, I actually believed the practice should be condemned for awhile, and tore the letter up, so as not to be "tempted" to let it sway my reasoning to its more balanced position. Now how indoctrinated is that:)

25

Will I Ever Belong

by rebel in

as a jw, i was always on the outside, looking in.

i never belonged and boy, did they make sure i knew it!!!.

all my life i have been an outsider.

Cicatrix

Hi Rebel,

I just left the borg last summer officially, but it was a very long process for me, and I was pretty much nothing but a shell when I realised I had to leave.

I was absolutly terrified at the prospect of making new friends- I still am to be honest. But one thing I've found that helps is to pursue something that you just really love. For me, that's writing. I'm taking a journalism class right now, and I'm starting to become friends with my class mates because we speak the same "language".

Because of my passion, I found a book called "The Artist's Way." It's supposed to help you unleash your inner creativity, but it does much more than that. It helps you to get down to the reasons why you are blocked and hesitant in various areas of your life. Using a daily journaling process, you explore why you are the way you are. You vent, you grieve, you explore new possibilities.

Another thing that has helped me is to explore my dreams. I use a dream symbol book based on Jungian psychology. I'm also taking mythology, which is really helping me to put all the pieces together and understand that I'm really not basically that different from the way that all humans are-it was just drilled into my head for years by the org-the same org that told me to strip my personality of everything that made me unique(and nearly killed me in the process).

I've also come to the realisation that I have to just get out there. I pretend like I'm confident and together, then pretty soon I feel like I am (I'm becoming a pretty good actress,lol). It's wierd how that works. I went out with my sisters for the first time since leaving the borg. We had a birthday bash for my sis, myself, and a couple of other people. I just pretended like I was Cinderella-I dressed up, put my chin up at a saucy level, and smiled at everyone (and hid my trembling hands under the table). And the wierd part was, everyone was enchanted, to my amazement. I even had the band members hanging at our table and they played my same request twice by the end of the evening.I was absolutelty exhausted by the end of the evening from the strain of my role, but it was a start, and a big improvement over my never-lift-your-eyes-from-the-floor former self of a few months ago.

In communications class, I learned that when people move to a foreign country, they react in different ways. Some just can't cope at all and return to their old country, some have limited association with their new country, living in areas with people of their same ethnicity, and some assimilate their new culture quite well. What really seems to make the difference is if they are willing to just forge ahead, make mistakes, and learn to live like the natives of that land, observing new customs that help make them a part of the new society.

Exjws are a lot like immigrants, I think. We have to learn a whole new way of living and relating to people (no more instant friendships via Get Togethers tm, lol). If you've ever had the chance to observe someone new to our country, you'll see this. They typically start off just observing a lot and asking a lot of questions, then when they feel more comfortable, they'll start conversing with you-asking about your background and sharing theirs with you until you find a common interest from which understanding and fellowship can blossom. They have to deal with new customs and a new language, and they make mistakes, but they don't give up.

I've handled my assimilation to my culture by taking political science and mythology courses, and I plan to take science courses, philosophy, and psychology also. I joyously celebrate holidays. I write and paint with abandon, and surf the internet for hours.I am also starting to open up and speak about my cult experiences with caring people on the "outside". These are all things that were forbidden to me in the jw culture, but my new culture permits them, so by participating in them, I am losing my fear and hesitancy and feeling more "normal".

Immigrants also have to deal with small-minded people who prey on their vulnerability. I've had to deal with my share of these too, like you. There is always someone ready to trash you when you are feeling good about yourself. You know why--They are jealous!!! You are doing something right, and you threaten them! Whatever you're doing at that point, keep it up. Just ignore them, or at least look like you are ignoring them. Getting no reaction from you will usually shut them up.I know it's hard to do, but remember, they are just a few amongst many millions of people on this planet, and they have no more right to happiness than you do. It gets easier to ignore them as time goes by lol! You may even find yourself calmly confronting them at some point down the road.

In regards to you feeling like two people, that's called dissociation, and it's caused by trying to live a life that is unacceptable to your psyche. If you enjoy reading, you might try "Man and His Symbols", edited by Carl Jung. A very long read, but very informative (if you can wade through my post, you can handle Jung, lol).

Another possiblity is that you have an introverted personality. That doesn't mean you are antisocial, it means that you do often need time by yourself to reflect on things, and you may choose to have fewer friends than someone who is an extrovert.Introverts, do, however, feel a bit different, as most people are extroverts (I'm an introvert myself).

I guess what I'm trying to say in a nutshell is give yourself some time. Get to know who you really are, explore your passions.Become your own best friend. You are a very articulate person with a lot to offer. Find out what you love the most, and come share it with us:)

{{{Berylblue}}} You've had a tough journey.You're courageous to speak out and keep on keeping on.

To Rebel, Berylblue, Kat, Maverick and all the other outsiders--A toast to those who march to the beat of their own drum.

Well, sorry my post is so long. I just feel so connected to this issue. Anyway, I'm off to explore astral travel, because it's interesting, and I CAN!!

Happy Freedom Rebel:)

23

Did The Elders Seem Eager To Disfellowship You?

by minimus in

did you ever feel that the elders just wanted you out?

in your experiences with the elders, did you feel "love" displayed at the judicial meeting, or did you sense that you were dealing with, the star of dragnet,"just the facts, please."?

in all the years that i was an elder, i think i only wanted to disfellowship a person once.

Cicatrix

I dissassociated myself after spending a few years being hounded by a elder who was "just sure" I was doing something immoral.This elder was the one that presided over the meeting we had when I reported my husband hitting me (complete with the irrefutable evidence of a bloodied and bruised lip), during which this elder basically implied it was my fault for not being obedient enough, and told me not to call the police (I didn't, but my mother did.).The accusations and unofficial shunning started right after that incidence.

Not surprisingly, he was one of two elders who showed up unannounced shortly after they received my DA letter. His demeanor was anything but kind as he fired off his questions, most of which I refused to answer (as far as I was concerned, I'd made my intentions clear and I was not going to waste my time explaining my reasons to a man who was stuck in his own litttle paradigm).I did tell him that I wasn't involved with any other religious organisation, though, so there were no grounds for an apostate label at that time.

The other elder, however, was kind and did seem concerned. He was a newcomer to the hall, sent in to "help" the local elders (two other elders had stepped down-I suspect out of protest in regards to how my self-proclaimed judge,jury and executioner was wielding his power in the congregation. I wasn't the only one targetted by this elder.) Unfortunately, the kind elder is an "underdog" at the kingdom hall, and has very little influence, so I don't think things will change much for the members.I still have a lot of respect for him, though. He's a decent guy caught up in a system that should work in theory, but doesn't in reality.

20

Would you allow someone else to discipline your kids?

by freedom96 in

jw
friends

there is much debate on whether or not a parent should discipline their child by spanking, or sometimes even worse.

minimus asked about this on a recent thread.. it reminded me of hearing stories about how those in positions of authority would sometimes spank a child.

the first that comes to mind is teachers.

Cicatrix

I'm currently an education major, and we were informed that in most states, it is illegal for a public school official to hit a child now. In fact, the pendulum seems to be swinging the other direction.

My children's school just lost a very good teacher last year. He attempted to discipline two girls by keeping them in for recess. The parents sided with the girls, and I was at the school for my kid's conference the day they came in and yelled at that teacher, threatening all kinds of retribution for daring to discipline their kids (it was the loss of ONE recess, mind you).The teacher apologised to me for having to hear the tirade, and told me that he would be retiring because he couldn't continue working under those conditions. I had known this teacher for many years. He was my sister's teacher when I was a kid, then my older children had him.My daughter became pen pals with his daughter, who was severely handicapped and later died of complications from her condition.He was a great father, and was well-liked and respected by most of the students. I never saw him discipline in a harsh manner-and yes, he had to discipline my children:) He never spanked kids, yet constantly was faced with parents who didn't want their kids disciplined by him in any manner, but who wouldn't talk to their kids themselves about the children's disruptive behavior.

In my daughter's school, some junior high girls got mad at a teacher for putting them on in-school suspension. They brought legal accusations against him that he was sexually molesting them. The police investigated, then dropped the charges. The girls later admitted it was a fraudulant claim.

While I was working in a high school last year, I witnessed several incidents that I can't reveal due to privacy issues. But they involved a challenge by various students to the directions of various teachers.The children in question were disrupting class and visibly upsetting other students, but the teachers were powerless to do anything about it. Calling in the principal only brought temporary reprieve.I'd say about 30% of the class time was involved with handling discipline problems.

This is not to say that all teachers love their jobs and are comitted to the education of children. I've worked in the schools, and I've seen effective teachers and ineffective teachers. Some really do seem to have an ax to grind with the students.A lot of teachers, however, start out with a commitment to education, and find that they have to spend more time trying to get kids to pay attention than they do to delivering the material. And it isn't always their teaching style that is the problem. I've watched teachers whose students have told me are "awesome," have days where nothing they do is effective to get the kid's attention.Daily, they are dealing with children who pay less and less attention, while the teachers are being held more and more accountable for what these children are learning.

So yes, I let others discipline my children. I don't believe in spanking for older kids, nor do I think school officials should paddle kids. But I've not objected to my sisters, friends, and the children's teachers disciplining them when they need it. I listen to both the adult and the child's version of the events, and I back up an adult's decision if my child's transgressions are serious- with grounding at home (which they hate with a passion-they'd rather have a spanking:) ) I have also challenged teachers and others who I thought didn't have a case for what they were doing (like the time my daughter lost a recess for coloring a tree purple. The teacher never told them what color to color the tree-the directions just said to color it. She told me my daughter was being "rebellious" , because everyone knows trees are green. Well, there are actually trees that have leaves that look purple. There was one such tree down the road from our house where my daughter got her inspiration. So I took a picture of the purple tree to her teacher and showed it to her.This teacher, by the way, had created problems for every jw child that was ever in her class).

50

What's your opinion on out of body experiences?

by qwerty in

jw
friends

i posted this reply to anti-absolutism's threaddoes anyone truly die?.

this as probably been discused before, read on though please tell me your thoughts now that you are not bound by wts teachings (or maybe you still are)....................... hi anti- .

glad you mention this, i was going to start a thread with a topic on near death or out of body experiences.

Cicatrix

Well, to be honest, I really don't know what to think about them, but I experienced something akin to an OBE last summer.It happened three times in a two week period-twice it involved a dream state at night, and one time it occurred on a sunny afternoon while I was taking a hike .

The same person (someone I don't know) appeared to me all three times, while it felt as though I was floating somewhere outside of myself. The person told me their name, but I was told I couldn't reveal it for some reason.I was shown that even though things were really painful in my life right then, everything was going to be all right.

Ever since then, after years of not being able to recall my dreams, I suddenly started having very vivid, meaningful dreams.

Having been skeptical in the past of this sort of thing, I was taken aback, to say the least.I still don't know what to make of it-if it was caused by some kind of electrical overload in my overstressed brain, or if I should believe in astral projection or life on some other plane. I'm very curious, but frankly also reluctant to investigate.

If I'd only had the nocturnal experiences, I could've just chalked it up to some really nice dreams, but there was that day time one, too.

At any rate, whatever it was, it was a positive experience for me and I'm glad it happened.

25

LADIES! Who would YOU choose?

by TR in

who would you choose and why?

who would you not choose and why?.

1. alex from bachelor 1.

Cicatrix

I have one channel and a serious homework load, so I've never seen Bachelor or Bachelorette.

Evan reminds me of the character Gaston in the Disney flick "Beauty and the Beast."

I vote for Heath Ledger. I just saw "The Four Feathers". Wow!! He never ceases to amaze me. He's absolutely stunning, but he also seems to have some sort of artistic integrity, judging by the roles he plays.

22

She

by joannadandy in

her employer genuinely likes her.

she is hardworking and does what she says.

shes never raised a ruckus and always smiles at everyone.

Cicatrix

Joanna,

What beautiful writing! Your description makes the last paragraph land like a blow to the heart.

I really liked this:

"She loves school, but feels stupid. Words tumble and travel in her brain but can never really come out, at least not in the manner she would hope they would. The expectation always is much higher than the actual final product."

Keep sharing, please. You're not pimping, you're gifting us, girl!

I hope you're working on getting published.

3

I Miss My Friend!

by Cicatrix in

i couldn't take the constant pressure of being under the microscope.

and i just plain couldn't continue living what i didn't believe anymore.

i don't have any family members in, and i don't regret leaving.

Cicatrix

{{{{Calamity}}}}

Thanks for your kind reply. My heart really goes out to those of you who have left family behind!!

It's been six months since I "officially" left, and over a year since I was a "true believer." Now that I've begun to get my footing, I find I'm dealing with emotions that I just couldn't when I first left. But I don't want to stay stuck at this point. I feel the need to start forging friendships with others in my area now. I'm just kind of at a loss how to go about it. I was involved with jws from age sixteen (I'm 37 now). Everything was so regulated, even how to form friendships! So I'm kind of just winging this now.

In the past couple of weeks, several women I go to school with have struck up conversations with me. I just learned that one woman lives about twenty minutes from me, and we share a love of writing and Celtic music, so I want to try to get together with her. Also, I had a nice talk with a neighbor the other day. I'm trying to muster up the nerve to ask them to do something with me, I just don't know what. All of my friendships in the past started with a 'get together' lol. The girl from school doesn't know about my past jw connection, but my neighbor does. With my neighbor, it's almost as if the jw thing is what kept her from talking to me before-grrr! I really enjoyed talking to her, we seem to have a lot in common. It makes me mad that the religion made her hesitant before, but yet I don't blame her, lol ( I was never really of the pushy informal witnessing type, but was with some who were, and I've gotten an earful from relatives who were subjected to it by others).

There is a neat little coffee house I just found out about in our area. Maybe I'll invite one of them to go there with me. Why am I so nervous about the prospect of even asking them, lol? This feels so verboten.

Man, do I have a long way to go.