inbetween

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Posts by inbetween

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  39

  Did you beleive you were A intellectual when you were a JW

  by jam in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i am embarrass to say when i was a jw and a elder i. thought i could sit down and speak on any subject with.

  anyone intelligently.

  i felt the schooling of the wt had.

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  inbetween

  excellent point, wobble, its an absolut information-control the society uses.

  additonally who really takes time to check the information given, when your supposed to trust the society, and any "apostate" info is just lies and demonized anyway.
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  7

  universal souvereignty

  by inbetween in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  according to the wts in the garden of eden, through the temptation of satan, the issue of universal souvereignty was being brought up.

  the answer came in our time, when it was clear, that humans cannot govern themselves, and satans rule is destructive and bad.. however, looking at the events, what did satan question ?

  he said, that by eating the fruit, the first couple will not die, but be like god.. about 900 something years later, they died and nowehere became like god.. at least then, the question was answered, case closed.. but jw fabricate something out of it in order to proof their endtime prophecy and cnetere themselve in the socalled issue of souvereignty..

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  inbetween

  according to the WTS in the garden of Eden, through the temptation of Satan, the issue of universal souvereignty was being brought up. The answer came in our time, when it was clear, that humans cannot govern themselves, and Satans rule is destructive and bad.

  However, looking at the events, what did satan question ? He said, that by eating the fruit, the first couple will not die, but be like God.

  About 900 something years later, they died and nowehere became like God.

  At least then, the question was answered, case closed.

  But JW fabricate something out of it in order to proof their endtime prophecy and cnetere themselve in the socalled issue of souvereignty.
• 
  39

  Did you beleive you were A intellectual when you were a JW

  by jam in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i am embarrass to say when i was a jw and a elder i. thought i could sit down and speak on any subject with.

  anyone intelligently.

  i felt the schooling of the wt had.

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  inbetween

  an intellectual ? I dont know, but I always thought I am intelligent, and had never a fear of discussing anything. However, even in service, most people have no idea how to talk to JW. Their arguments are easy refuted.

  Now, after reading a lot on the internet, I wonder how so long I swallowed such nonsense, even defended it. unbelievable, to the point, where today I question my intelligence more than ever....
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  20

  Is the governing body any different from Osama Bin Laden?

  by Joliette in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  justifying people willing dying over the blood tranfusion issue is the same as osama justifying killing anyone who did not agree with his religious beliefs?

  ?.

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  inbetween

  Standfirm: Not at all. Anyone who refuses a blood transfusion does so of their own free will. No one forced them. This includes accepting the consequences that may bring, including death, although this is very rare.

  so, no one forces people not to agree with Osama bin Laden then ? If all converted to Islam and followed Osama, no one would have to die right ? Is that your definition of free will ?

  You as an active and seemingly theocratic well versed Witness, you know, that accepting a blood transfusion leads to a Judicial comittee, no doubt. There , one has to repent, which is feeling deep remorse over the sin. Now, if that transfusion saved your life, how can you real feel remorse over that ?

  Either you pretend regret (what else can it be, unless somebody is really suizidal) or you get dfd (technically you disassociate, but thats just semantics and any genuine person has to admit that)
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  151

  Introducing Myself

  by StandFirm in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  hello to jwn!

  this is standfirm.

  i mainly post on the topix jehovah's witness forum, but i decided to give it a try over here also.

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  inbetween

  standfirm:

  thanks for your reply,

  regarding the last WT, the problem is, the basic ideas are indeed based on the bible, but the WTS does not stick to the biblical message alone, it goes and adds its own rules and interpretations:

  example:

  occult:

  the scripture was Deuteronomy 18:10-12. In order to undertsand the strong notion against spiritism, one needs to consider the context, something we always should do, right ? Here it talks about the sourrounding nations looking for direction to spiritistic practices. Instead Jehovah told them only to listen to his prophets. This was very important, a nation among hostile people needed clear direction from God in order to survive. Any distraction from other sources would be damaging.

  Well. nobody who believes the bible, would today get involved in spiritism for much the same reason. But what God warned against is practizing spiritism in all its forms. To read, listen to, watch or play something that features uncanny practices is not the same ! Its a usually a product of someones phantasy. If you want to read real demonic stories, just read the bible ! The principle, also from the context for Deuteronomy 18, is clearly not to contact any other spirit sources. Anything else goes beyond what is written, to control people on what they can watch on TV is taking away the freedom of a Christian using his bible (not watchtower) trained conscience.

  disfellowshipping:

  do we have to go there ? ok, the bible does not condone certain wrongs, like 1. Corinthinas 6:9-11 shows, and of course the command to remove the wicked in 1. Cor 5.

  But how should it be done ?

  first of all, Paul wrote to quit mixing company with someone who is a brother and fornicates, extortions etc.

  The WTS combines this with another scripture in John, were, again the context shows, somebody who denies Christ should not even be greeted. John did not make any connection, which would clearly show, that this command would be an addition to Pauls advice, not to mix company. So why does the WTS fabricate any connection ?

  Furthermore, while Paul mentioned a number of sins, which may lead to "removing the wicked", there is no metnion of reasons the WTS fabricates like: taking blood, smoking, celebrating Christmas, taking civil service (until 96) etc...

  Additional the way disfellowshipping ni handled has no basis in the scriputres. Where in the bible is a secret court of three eldes mentioned, who decide that the whole congregation cannot associate with someone anymore, even though they have usually no idea why ?

  Didnt Paul clearly address the problem in his letter, so everybody knew, what was the problem (a guy sleeping with his mother?)

  And when it comes to family members, where in the bible is the difference mentioned between a close relative living in the same household or not ?

  How does the matter apply to anybody who simply disassociates himself, without any wrongdoing ?

  Standfirm there is a difference between being based on the scriputres and being firmly established in the sciptures. Even the witch hunt of the middle ages was based on the bible.

  inbetween
• 
  151

  Introducing Myself

  by StandFirm in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  hello to jwn!

  this is standfirm.

  i mainly post on the topix jehovah's witness forum, but i decided to give it a try over here also.

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  inbetween

  welcome standfirm,

  as a still active witness, I appreciate an apologist here on this forum, because sometimes ideas get too onesided, all agree with some "apostate" statements. It always adds to a discussion to hear the other side as well, if it is well presented. This I missed lately a lot, apologists like djeggnogg, or scholar, to me they seemed either a bit strange or they avoided certain specific questions.

  My personal conviction is to keep an open mind to every fact or logic that is presented, no matter form which "side".

  I also read a lot of apostate websides and arguments, and while I got a better understanding of for example why trinity or immortal soul are so widespread, an understanding the WTS never presented, i still think, the bible does not really support these teachings.

  To me, the problem of the WTS is not so much their core doctrines, they even might be closer to the socalled "truth" than most other religions, the problem with the WTS I see, is that they go totally "pharisee" with the main message of the bible, rules and regulations, control and prominence. (just look at the last WT study article)

  The fact alone, that we only can have those discussions in an anonymous internet forum, and not at the kingdom hall, shows of the repressive nature of the org.

  Anyway, really loking forward to your contributions,

  welcome once more,

  inbetween
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  32

  Why the Dinosaur in the Green NWT Bible?

  by VM44 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  inside the front cover of the green new world translation.

  bibles is a map, and in the map is a drawing of a dinosaur.. does anyone know why the dinosaur is there?.

  this is something i have actually wondered about for years.. perhaps someone here might know the answer.. --vm44

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  inbetween

  omg, forgot all about this map. loved it as a kid though....
• 
  22

  crisis of conscience

  by inbetween in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  when i was fully in, i never even heard of ray franz or his books.. after learning the truth about the truth, what woke me up, was in the first place the inconsistency of doctrine, the missing logic and the bending of the scripture to fit their theology.. personal experiences i took with a grain of salt.

  therefore, even though i learned about "crisis of conscience" i did not bother reading it.

  personally i did not doubt, that what he wrote would be true, but i thought, it would not help somebody to get out, because, its his personal experience, which proves nothing in the end.

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  inbetween

  When i was fully in, I never even heard of Ray Franz or his books.

  After learning the truth about the truth, what woke me up, was in the first place the inconsistency of doctrine, the missing logic and the bending of the scripture to fit their theology.

  Personal experiences I took with a grain of salt. Therefore, even though I learned about "Crisis of Conscience" I did not bother reading it. Personally I did not doubt, that what he wrote would be true, but I thought, it would not help somebody to get out, because, its his personal experience, which proves nothing in the end. There is always another side of the story, another viewpoint, that is not presented.

  Recently though, i got the chance to read it myself, and I was blown away....

  I did not expect such a well documented and well written account. Of course, not everything he says he can show a document for it, but the amount of evidence he could produce was a surprise for me.

  Even the correspondence after his disfellowshipping about the recorded tapes show how misleading and unfair the WTS can get if somebody is in their way. The whole matter of his disfellowshipping sounded very similar to the trial of Jesus.

  So to anybody who has not read it yet: It really is worth every minute of your time !
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  11

  I am a sheep in wolves' clothing

  by Anony Mous in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  since i'm not getting out of the jw cult any time soon due to my position and family i decided to do a little contra-action.

  maybe some of you can share your stories, experiences and let me know how far you kicked it before you either left or got booted.

  my intention is to get people thinking.. - a couple of weeks ago i had a demonstration on stage.

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  inbetween

  Doing the same here, focus on authentic bible message. When the WT article emphasises the obedience towards the FDS, I comment something like: "We obey because we can trust and proof to ourselves, that the advice is firmly based on the bible" (hoping somebody will really do this and wake up...)

  Whenever they try to push rules, i try to balence it by stressing the importance of principles coupled with freedom and personal responsibility.

  I dont know, whether some notice my more liberal approach, or if it falls on deaf ears, like "darthfader"mentioned.

  Recently though, I got positive feedback from one sister, she, being fully in mentally, has difficulties with some "rules" and is pretty opne minded.

  Anyway, atm it is the only reasonable way for me to stick through and still kind of have a good conscience, and minimize the hypocrite in me....

  Oh how often I wish I could just walk out.......sigh...
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  29

  Time Article on Ray Franz - 1985 (scanned)

  by waiting in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  hey y'all,.

  hope this works.

  if not, see scanned article under the thread about donating books to the local libraries..

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  inbetween

  bump,

  maybe seen before, but look at the post 412 of Pathofthorns:

  "Just wait til they say 1935 wasn't then end of the anointed being called. This thing can go on for a long time.

  Path"

  this was posted in 2000, then 7 years later the Watchtower said just this..(QFR)

  "new light" revealed to somebody posting on an apostate forum, holy spirit must have been on the loose