Posts by diamondiiz

143

Does anyone think that maybe we're just wrong?

by paul from cleveland in

jw
friends

i was disfellowshipped in 1995. even though i lost my friends and family, i felt like i had been finally set free and was happy for many years.

while i was a jehovah's witness, i always felt so miserable.

i never felt like i was doing enough to please jehovah.

diamondiiz

I don't feel wrong at all. I wasn't DF but left because I've done enough research before leaving to know that wts is lead by just men who aren't lead by God nor at they anointed channel speaking for God. They're just typical men who decieve their flock and possibly themselves and that is why there were so many scandels from day one and why there are so many problems that people exxperience. When we leave a deception we feel sometimes unsure of what the future holds and we feel sad to realize that we're going to die like everyone else. General public doesn't dwell on dying when they're not getting up in years or have a severe sickness. Witnesses dwell on that all the time. Most don't think they will ever die so being delusioned by prospect of living forever on paredise they keep talking about it and the fact escapes them that they are growing older and will die. They point to everyone else dying but them. Now when those that get df or some of us leave we find ourselves in a real world and we must come to the realization that our time will come at some point in our lives. Problem is that general public doesn't dwell on the topic but because we have been in a cult for so long when we find ourselves on the outside these thoughts bug us.

I never felt that NGO was a huge problem that some make it out to be. How the child abuse cases were handled out of court started my awakaning and I can to realize that gb doesn't rely on God but themselves as proof was how they settled out of court. I would guess that all religions have pedophile problems of their own and that wts problem isn't much different from other churches. But we believed we were part of something better where these sorts of things were not covered up and the difference with wts is that all are ministers and generally all practicing wts religion go from door to door. When known pedophiles, child and spouse abusers are allowed/encouraged to go door to door, this shows that wts doesn't care about the hart these people did in the past but they also don't care enough that these people can create more harm in the future as they're exposed to more kids and in many cases people who have just gone through some sort of life crisis and are vulnareble.

When you do your thorough research on the history of wts and it's doctrine you will never doubt yourself that you're wrong about wts. Without that research you will still feel that you're wrong and they're right especially when you were df for something you believe was your own fault.

81

An Elder wrote anomously...

by Butterflyleia85 in

jw
friends

i realize as an elder that i am speaking out against the very organization i try to faithfully represent, but i personally think that the governing body is wrong by teaching that only what they teach us, as printed in the watchtower publications, should be considered to be the truth.

theyve made the expression of any personal opinions or group debates over their official versions of biblical truths subject to disciplinary action often leading to someone being disfellowshipped.. .

that is why i feel that i must keep my own identity somewhat anonymous.

diamondiiz

butterfly: Ray Franz's book is worth the money, if you search around I think you can get it around $20-30. It's well written and good to own rather than having to return it to a library. I understand not wanting to spend the cash on "a book" but trust me it's worth it. It is a sad book in a way and reveals much about the organization and the procedures of the leaders. You can find it on the net as I've seen it online but didn't bookmark it. Much what Ray has to say, you'll learn in your own research anyways so much won't be a revelation to you once you read it. I would guess that many of us are thankful that Ray wrote the book in a manner he did, and the flow of the book is such that reading it is not a bore or hard to follow unlike the Proclaimers book.

I also enjoyed the letter from the elder as it shows that he is waking up to see wts for what it is even though it appears that he is limited in knowledge of much of wts's dealings. I agree with his view on web sites as some detract from the message when they appear messy and all over the place but many are just individuals trying to state their view at the time when they realized they were decieved and still bitter about their wts experience. Sites like freeminds are better executed and managed sites but that's more like comparing wts.org site to freeminds and some other jw apolagist site to some other ex site quickly put together by a new exjw. That is also why many of those xjw sites don't get updated. Likewise you'll find some misinformation on these sort of sites as to wts and it's history.

As for videos, the letter also makes a good point that presentation is important. If you have a religious video and one speaker looked like jw and another one like a gang member from the ghetto who would you take more seriously? That's why wts sell they crap by making sure their people look presentable at the doors. An appearance makes a first impression and it will sway the vote if to give a speaker a chance or reject the speaker before he even opens his mouth.

14

Money

by Heartbreaker in

ok, so you've gotten past the fact they are not jehovahs channel of communication, and that it's just a bunch of men behind the curtain.

so then the shift goes to why do they do it?

i mean control is ok, some people crave it, but what is the big pull?

diamondiiz

I don't understand this issue as well. From what RF says, they believe they own crap but why would they dismissfacts like 607 vs 587? How could they ignore Malawi while reasoning that Mexicans were ok to bribe officials for military cards? But with the system set up the way it is I don't see how they can benefit financially from money coming in. I can see them enjoying life like Russell but not to the same extend, they can't run things like Rutherford so they seem to be stuck in some area of hoping for the end and looking at an exit stratagy? Is that possible? How could they exit with cash? It is very bizarre. Would it be reasonable that if the end doesn't come within a certain time frame as it's already running late on their time line they will disbanden at some point while having cash stashed somewheres? But they're old farts now so that doesn't make sense.

If they blindly believe their own crap then they will run things until money starts drying up so they will have to start selling buildings and continue renovating buildings downsizing until they're forces to pack more congregations into single buildings, and keep downsizing until their ranks decrease and few hardline followers remain and the religion will be an internal cult structure with no or just quarterly magz. This process could keep them around for many decades if not hundreds of years as a sect with nothing to offer living a dream surounded by hardcore believers.

7

discussion with wife

by inbetween in

recently i had a discussion with my wife..she always feels guilty for not doing enough for jehovah.. i tried to slowly show her, that we are not saved by works, that fear of armageddon should not motivate us at all , she agreed with everything, then she said something like "well, we have to know the scripures better, because one time we will not know, whom to follow, we have to know, what the scriptures tell us".

wow, i thought, there is a reasonable basis, i can built on, to slowly show her the corruption of the gb, but i have to be careful, baby-steps, i really had to hold back from just unloading everything i learned the past few months (which btw, just confirmed my own doubts i had for years).

next, on appropriate time, i will point out more stupitidy and controling issues, like in the new wt (about prayer and married couple) or the rules in the gods love book.....but i have to be careful, because she is were i was just a while ago, being loyal to gods org.... .

diamondiiz

My wife is also feeling soooo guilty about not doing enough and that she's not worthy of paradise. She still attends meetings but no more fs which at least is a baby step in a right direction but still scared to examine the wts history. It's hard to overcome the cult mentality and set oneself free - is your wife a born in? Mine is :( Hope she can see the real wts for what it is, sorry I don't have any advise how to do that since my wife still lives in denial and I can't help her :(

peace

158

How many left???

by angel eyes in

does anybody know how many annointed are left alive??

our friend who was one of the annointed has died, i cried so much but then i was excited knowing shes in heaven meeting apostle paul, peter and brother knorr etc....wow how great is that :).

unsure how many are left though :((.

diamondiiz

Anointed are a delusional bunch. If it's so wonderful to die how come their mighty leader Jaracz seeked medical help and not took a deep breath and refused all medicine? Wouldn't it make more sense for Jaracz(sp?) to die and be in heaven now? Oh wait - he realized that this life is all we got and didn't want to chance it by dying too early a choice the young kids don't have when their brainwashed parants refure blood and sacrifice their own loved ones because the scum bags in Brooklyn say so. Why is AE asking how many delusionals are around? All "she" has to do is look it up in "her" magazines and not ask people who don't give a flying @#$% about how many anointed there are left.

BTW, "jw" have such a warped view of death, all these braindead people thinking that death solves all the problems and they'll be in paradise or heaven why don't they just refuse all medical treatment and just die already. Death=heaven/paradise is another "jw" nonsense that I hate.

63

Jehovah Witnesses are NOT a bad Cult but man made type spiritual guide

by Butterflyleia85 in

when i was a jehovah's witness i remember these debates being mentioned about the raps of innocent children that elders commented, the blacks and whites segregation, the crosses and christmas tree in the bethal, etc.

jehovah's witnesses have always been harassed for these things.

with the changing world and knowledge of the scriptures they work hard to try to work towards accurateness.

diamondiiz

Butterfly,

As yourself is wts was backed by holy spirit from the start, how and if not from the start when did it recieve that backing? That was my question when I started to research the organization. From the research you'll get your own answers whether you come to conclusion that wts is God's chosen or to a conclusion that I came to that wts is nothing more than man made org that appears to by holier than thou but has many skeletons in the closet and the closet is packed full that they can't keep the door closed from the truth being seen by all. Read Thy Kingdom Come book and you will see what Charles Russell taught. With that understanding my conclusion was that Russell when died believed that Christ returned in 1874 and began to reign in 1878 and that the last days started in 1799 while 1914 was to be the start of great tribulation. When Russell died in 1916 he may have actually believed that the great tribulation started as ww1 was raging. If you read some of Russell's scandels and legal battles you'll find that Russell wasn't as honest as wts claims. His divorce was ugly, his court with The Brooklyn Eagle revealed that he donation of his wealth to wts was really a transfer of assets to an org that was 95% or around there fully controlled by Russell which really meant that WTS was Russell and Russell was WTS. He used society's assets to travel the world and enjoy his life. By doing so, his wife got practically nothing from the divorce which he even schemed not to pay alimony or similar bills to his wife which at present I don't remember the details without going back and re-reading. Russell lied in court about business connections, had his secretery or treasurer revealed that Russell had shares/ownership in other businesses while being a president of wts including a holding company where people's donations would go to. From Russell's history alone I concluded that wts didn't have God's backing from the start but was lead by a man who may have honestly believed his nonsense but didn't mind benefitting from people's donations as his lifestyle didn't seem to lack much.

Moving onto Rutherford, you; ll learn more dates and more wacky ideas and dictatorial attitude established. Until 1930 Rutherford taught 1874 was Christ's return, changed 1878 to 1914 in early 1920s and pointed to 1925 as more biblical date than 1914. Encouraged reading Angels and Women which was supposedly inspired by a fallen angel and Rutherford argued that reading that book was beneficial rebuking those who pointed out the spiritistic influence. Rutherford build a masnion for himself and made it appear as if it was for the ancient worthies of Hebrews 11 which were taught to be resurrected. Hs no problem driving around in a Caddy showing off while abusing his power and treating his so called brothers like dirt. Olin Moyle court documents are quite interesting to read. Moyle was wts lawyer which didn't like Rutherford's behaviour and thus wrote Rutherford a letter stating so and due to Rutherford's behaviour he was to leave Bethal but was willing to continue serving as societies lawyer and work on the cases he was already involved in. Rutherford basically called him an apostate and evil slave and was able to turn his son against the father. Moyle sued and won! Rutherford died with only couple people attending his funeral, even his wife and son didn't appear. Another scandel arrived where old Rutherford's body to be layed as he wasnted to be buried in Beth Sarim or Beth Shan while authorities denied the request for either. From examination of Rutherford I also don't feel that God's spirit was anywhere near.

As you study Knorr and the gang you'll see that the new light and new ideas are sometimes harmful to members, sometimes so called old light is brought back. You'll find they ignore reason and will twist truth or publish half truths, or quotes taken out of context BUT always making themselves appear holy and above reproof. You'll learn about abuse problems, child and wife abuse, you'll learn about twisted UN explanaitions and that foreign branches are still NGO members even though the NY branch resigned. You'll see how they changed their policies on organ transplants without apolagies but instead made it a conscience decision a deceptive way of making it appear as if it's your decision but that they haven't really changes their mind completely. 1975 scandel. Ray Franz scandel.

Ask yourself how many other religions do you know that had this many scandels, false hopes, false dates and so many changes to the teachings within 130 years of their existance? Could this organization be backed by the same Spirit that the bible claims to in infalible? Examine the facts with an open mind and you will see that the wts is nothing more than man made, run by man with a pride problem who present themselves as gods. They can change their teachings, they can question their past their teachings or others but you as their follower can't do neither without being labeled a renegade, and apostate. For discovering the truth about these men you may loose your so called friends, possibly your family even mother, father or your own kids!!!!

There is sooooo much to learn for someone that is just starting to see what this organization is all about and if one is young enough the better chance of being less hurt. There are men who lost everything in their late years with nothing to show for as they've sacrificed their lives for this religion - Ray Franz, Ed Dunlap. With your research you'll see that Christ didn't return in 1874 nor in 1914 nor yesterday :) We're not in last days and the end as taught by wts is not imminent.

63

Jehovah Witnesses are NOT a bad Cult but man made type spiritual guide

by Butterflyleia85 in

when i was a jehovah's witness i remember these debates being mentioned about the raps of innocent children that elders commented, the blacks and whites segregation, the crosses and christmas tree in the bethal, etc.

jehovah's witnesses have always been harassed for these things.

with the changing world and knowledge of the scriptures they work hard to try to work towards accurateness.

diamondiiz

Butterflyleia85:

I think many of us here tend to point out the negative in WTS. We could say there are positive points and there are many, but again these same traits could be found my those who are strict followers of other religions. With wts the question should be asked, are the people we think are moral, good... truely such or are they appearing to be so like many who attend churches? No doubt there are many good people who are willing to sacrifice so much of their time to go to the meetings and service but once again, how many of these do it because they came to believe that's the only way they can save their lives? As we cannot read individual hearts and I hopefully won't be too critical of individual followers I think looking at the leadership will reveal more about the religion. Looking at the history of wts one can see many schemes, revisions, publishing half truths, ignoring facts and painting all outsiders as evil or causing evil to those "serving" Jehovah. The leaders can change their opinions but their so called brothers in faith can't! In fact looking deeper at the leadership one can see that no one in the organization can question them openly as this would cause others to label the one as an apostate who is causing stumbling or division within the congregation(s). This is a cult mentality! Just as Catholic church during the middle ages was able to execute those who opposed the church so in a similar manner wts shuns those who question any of the teachings of the leadership in the open. Cult and religion isn't that much different in my opinion and I have no use for either as both are led by man but some are high control groups like wts which demand blind obediance to the leadership who crown themselves as being anointed. They are blind guides leading people astray. I would say wts is like an satan who turns himself into an angel of light. They appear to be moral and clean on the outside and having socalled rules to keep evil doers away thus keeping the congregations clean. But a deeper look inside will show that the leadership have misused their power in which they hurt many people. they twist scriptures to their own benefits causing harm to those that many follow these. The leadership appears to be humble but deeper look shows that they are full of pride who will not admit their past wrongs but will twist things to appear that the new light is upto the conscience of the followers. Since the leaders should be exemplary they prove to be decietful wicked men who will not feel any regret when it comes to punishing anyone who questions their flawed thinking even though they know well that they are in the wrong. They divide families and destroy friendships. Their cult mentality can be seen through their doctrines and the way they present their arguements and how they present themselves to the general witness population. If GB is not a good example of a cultish leadership I don't know what it.

11

Confused over JW friend's behavior: (I'm not a JW)

by whyizit in

jw
friends

i invited a jw friend of mine to a christian retreat, and she did go.

it was a small group.

she seemed to enjoy herself.

diamondiiz

The christian retreat doesn't need to be a church get together so like YMCA it could be viewed as a conscience matter, I know back in 70s or 80s wts had that QFR article discouraging YMCA but I don't think they follow it strictly as I know many who went to YMCA while I attended the meetings not that long ago. The so called Christian retreat could be a campt or anything social sponsered by some "christian" organization which depending on what it is may not have any implications for a jw unless some congs are really anal about things like that but the congs I went to were not.

I too don't believe in imortality of the soul. The 144k doctrince that teaches the so called anointed will be transformed in a twinkle of and eye to their heavenly reward also doesn't cantradict the bible teaching as in theory the chosen ones are to recieve their reward and be transformed into the spirit realm as spokan in Thessalonians if I remember corectly.

If you want to talk about anything with her talk about 1914 and 607. The whole religion's foundation is based upon 607 as without that date 1914 has no merit for anything even though Charles Russell didn't teach 1914 as what wts teaches it to mean today. If she can't prove to you 607 from any other source besides wts there is no point of trying to prove wts is a true religion. You can ask her why they taught 1799 was beganning of the last days and now they teach 1914 is the start of the last days? How did they realize they were wrong before? As 1799 had nothing to do with them calculating the 6000 years that they suggest for changing the date of return of Christ from 1874 to 1914. Their so called 100 year error still doesn't make sense as one would think they would have moved 1874 to 1974 but they've kept 1914 and pointed to the end of the world in 1975 :) WT dates should be your topic of study IMO from which she'll learn a lot of old wts history and come to realization that she got involved with a fanatical religion based on stupidity of the leaders.

45

Who Or What Influenced You The Most To Get Out Of The Religion?

by minimus in

jw
friends

for me, i think it was time and the realization of the idiocy of the beliefs and man made doctrines.

i just couldn't ignore it any longer..

diamondiiz

Knew there was something wrong when I read the UN scandel which I still don't think it's HUGE but that was the start, pedophiles shook my faith in WTS since when I called them in June, a month after finding out they settled out of court and they basically told me to write them a letter and wouldn't answer anything on the phone I was quite upset about it. But what finally did it was when I found Thy Kingdom Come book at my wife's grandparants home which we were cleaning out for them. I've read it and that was it for the wts. I knew that 1914 was bogus and learned all the other BS Charlie taught I didn't need to see much more. I've stopped going to any of the meetings at that point and started researching wts, year an a half later I finally DA myself from them. Only reason I wrote a letter was because that's what they expect from those joining the cult to do with their former religion so if I had to do that when I left the catholic club I didn't want to disappoint them so I wrote nice long letter resigning from this cult. No more religion, never again!!!

18

Anyone from;Michigan,Wisconsin,Minnesota,North Dakota,Montana,Idaho,Washington?

by jookbeard in

i've always wondered which is the coldest state in the winter, these ones that border canada?.

diamondiiz

We don't live in igloos here in Canada you know :) Southern Ontario is same latitude as northern California. Sourthern Ontario is humid and summers are hot so Michigan would not be cold by any means. Washington is on the coast and similar weather to southern BC which has wild winters. Montana I know is cold but they might get chinooks like southern Alberta which would give them a nice break during winter but that I'm not 100% certain of and I know parts of Idaho are crazy cold because of their high elevation but so are parts of Colorado. So out of the once I know I would guess either Montana or Idaho are the coldest.