Posts by Awakened07

78

JWs: Biggest Turnover Rate of Members! "Masked churn" rate of 2/3rds!!

by Seeker4 in

jw
friends

an article just out this afternoon said the following.

note especially the second paragraph about jws: .

for some groups, their relatively steady number of adherents over the years hides a remarkable amount of coming and going.

Awakened07

Warlock, you are right and wrong at the same time.

If you suppose that surveys (and the statistics gathered from them) in any field are done by asking the entire population, I think you'll be surprised.

So 700 per state accurately represent the American public?

Basically, yes - that's the general idea, although I shouldn't comment on this particular poll and how it was conducted as I haven't looked into it.

It won't be as perfectly accurate as if you'd asked every single American citizen, but I think you can agree that that would be a rather overwhelming task. So those people who work with these matters have agreed on a general polling sample size/percentage in order to get a fairly accurate picture of what's going on. There is of course a margin of error involved.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_poll

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistical_survey

7

I Am Worried

by StAnn in

jw
friends

i'm pretty new here so forgive me if this has been discussed and i just haven't found it.. i read so many comments about how the wt is tightening its grip on the dubs.

i read a lot of comments about "kool-aid" and the impending demise of the wt and all the scandals.

i am becoming worried about my dub family.

Awakened07

There have been countless speculative threads on here about this, kinda like "If the Watchtower literally told them to jump off a bridge, would they do it?".

Some here seem to think so, and perhaps even a few would. I think though that it won't come to that. One can point to the no-blood doctrine as an example that they don't mind playing games with people's lives, so why not, but it seems they are becoming aware of what a mess-up that whole thing has been, and are trying to ease their way out of it. If they could easily get out of it and simply say "new light reveals that we can take blood", I think they'd do it. As it is, there would be an uproar because of all the lives lost, there would be court cases etc.

That said, there does seem to be a 'tightening' of doctrine, but it's not any worse than it's been in the past - we're just not so used to it now. Read Watchtowers from the 40's and 50's and I think you'd be frightened. No "Kool-Aid drinking" occurred then, and I doubt it will happen now.

I wouldn't worry about it at least. Their rhetoric may become stronger and more pointed, but I think it's done in an effort to "throw JWs a bone", keep telling them it's close and why, and basically keep them on their toes and in line.

At worst, I think perhaps they'll become more conservative and more cult-like in the sense that most forms of entertainment will be at least frowned upon, if not banned. People not 100% into all parts of the 'service' will be looked down upon etc. I don't think it'll get worse than that, although it's bad enough I guess. Combine that with a constant fear of imminent world destruction (because they do fear it, even though they think they'll probably survive), creates a bunch of neurotics. Not such a good thing.

So... I'm not sure what my conclusion is here. I don't think they'll be asked to do something crazy, but at the same time, the coming years will probably be harder on them.

118

Losch reveals newer new light at Australia Zone Visit

by Billy the Ex-Bethelite in

okay everybody, grab your barf bag because i just got a steaming shovel full of craptastic notes from gerrit's zone visit to the land down under !!.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ read at your own risk ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~puke.

zone overseer was losch and his side kick was a big black guy, quite a scolar, cant remember his name though.

Awakened07

Are you guys thinking that it could end up like a Jonestown or Koresh thing?

I still find that hard to believe, and a little 'out there'. JWs are just too... boring and stale to do something so extreme. Even selling their belongings and moving somewhere would be too much for most of them, and the older members would vividly remember pre-1975 if that was to happen.

The "falling away" would be tremendous. No, I think these are just tactics. I'm sure one can find similar (and worse) statements from the past. It's just to keep people on their toes and in line, and keep having their hopes up.

118

Losch reveals newer new light at Australia Zone Visit

by Billy the Ex-Bethelite in

okay everybody, grab your barf bag because i just got a steaming shovel full of craptastic notes from gerrit's zone visit to the land down under !!.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ read at your own risk ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~puke.

zone overseer was losch and his side kick was a big black guy, quite a scolar, cant remember his name though.

Awakened07

We'll need to see this in print (or video), but if it is true:

1. Leaving babylon the great no longer fleeing from false to true religion, now it is fleeing from material things and possibly geographical.

I've been thinking this far that those on this forum who say they may be gearing up for doing something really crazy are conspiracy nuts, but now I'm seriously starting to get worried for those still in...

4. King of the north Unknown...." we will know when they attack us".

So - no matter who 'attacks' them (as an org.) is now automatically 'King of the North'? Way to fulfill prophecy by default. They've been trying so hard for so many years now to tick someone off, be it religion or politicians, it would almost be a miracle if they're not "attacked" by someone, and not necessarily for their religious doctrines. It's as if they been going: "Please, someone notice and attack us!! We've been slandering and badmouthing you guys for years! Please, pretty please!? We need to be persecuted and attacked! Please...?" I guess they had high hopes that the last tract campaign would set it off, but no one seems to bother. Poor them.

6. Unknown if FDS will survive Armageddon.

This is 'new light', isn't it? Or rather - the old light extinguished? Didn't they use to know this?

7. Matt 10:23 applies to our preaching work, every nation, NOT every person will be preached to ( parrelles with the circuit of Israel)

8. Matt 24:14- Now totally fulfilled!!!

If some are not even preached to (and that's "OK" to them), then what's the point in preaching to anyone at all? Why not just let everyone get the same treatment by God as those who are not preached to?

11. The scripture in Zechariah 14:12 COULD be literal, to quote direct " Jehovah could use radiation"

Nice. A throwback to the crazy 50's Watchtower or something. Antimatter and radiation. Does it matter what he uses? I'm sure as Creator, he would have a trick or two up his sleeve we wouldn't even know about. The main point is that it should be really painful, and painfully horrible to watch. That's the way a loving God does things, after all.

12. With the celestial phenomena, it is literal and may include Tsunami as the scripture on the roaring of the sea ( which use to mean the sea of mankind) could now be the literal sea.

"Oops - we forgot to include weather phenomenons in our understanding of prophecy, and now there are weather phenomenons all over the place. Better make prophecy fit what actually happens."

13. There will be groups of brothers after armaggedon assigned to clean up the bodies.

"Yay!! Dibs on that privilege! Woohoo!"

14. The resurection would take place mre than likely over a 300 year period and in reverse.

-Based on the scripture that says....?

31

The evolution & creation dilemma? Its driving me mad

by Mr. Majestic in

my mind has been twisting for a few months now.

i suppose i am trying to fill the void left by the faith ive lost.

but i am trying to make sense of what is.

Awakened07

Just a point about the "first cause". It might not be covered in the theory of evolution but surly it is heavily linked to it because where would evolution be without an organism to start with?

Yes, but it isn't covered by the theory of evolution, because the theory of evolution describes the mechanisms that drive the change in populations of species over time. So if one wants to, one can believe that a God created the very first life form, and that the rest (evolution) happened after that. Many evolutionists (like Ken Miller who is in one of the videos I linked to) are theists.

Is there anywhere that covers the "first cause"?

Atheists will of course need a different first cause, or rather the other way around; atheists look at the scientific method and how it gives us answers in other areas, and decide to find an answer even here that isn't supernatural. This 'first cause' is called abiogenesis, and is covered in one of the videos in the series I linked to (although there are several competing hypotheses on this - you may want to look at Wikipedia as well for instance). You will need to spend some time researching if you truly want to find out about this, I'm afraid. It's not as easy an answer as "God did it and we know because the Bible says so". I sometimes wish it was just as fast and easy to explain science, but it just isn't. At the same time, that's what makes it fascinating - there are real, well reasoned, elaborate answers to find.

31

The evolution & creation dilemma? Its driving me mad

by Mr. Majestic in

my mind has been twisting for a few months now.

i suppose i am trying to fill the void left by the faith ive lost.

but i am trying to make sense of what is.

Awakened07

'Creationism' is one of the many reasons I could no longer be a Jehovah's Witness. The Watchtower - who I thought would not lie (...) - did in fact lie, or at least distort scientific data, mis-quoted scientists, omitted new data, quoted outdated sources... Anything to support creationism and ridicule evolution theory. As I have researched more, I've found that other religious people and organizations are no different. They lie, cheat and distort in some sort of 'holy war' against evolution theory. There is no 'peer reviewing' of material. If someone says they've found evidence against evolution, it's swallowed fur and all. Often quoted with no sources.

The truth is that the only reason evolution theory is attacked, is because it challenges a literal understanding of Genesis. Had it been about something different, or the Bible hadn't had a creation story at all, evolution theory would be as solid in everyone's mind as any other scientific theory.

It's important to understand that evolution theory, as it currently stands, does not address the origin of life. Darwin did touch on that subject, but it is not part of the theory. The origin of life is dealt with in abiogenesis hypotheses, which are still not theories.

There are many facts of nature. It is a fact that when you drop an object from a height, it will fall to the ground. Einstein's general theory of relativity is the theory that explains how and why it happens. It is a fact that fossils are found in different strata of rock, oldest and least developed furthest down, and gradually more complex further up through time, layer by layer. The rock layers can be dated using several independent radiometric dating methods. It turns out it is so universal that certain fossils are found in certain strata, that one can see which strata are the oldest compared to others by looking at the fossils they contain. But to find out the age, one of course date the strata using said dating methods.

You will hear that there are no transitional fossils. Of course, there are numerous, from all types of animal and plant life. In fact, even so, one doesn't even have to look at fossils, one can look at living animals, because they have vestigial organs. Like whales and dolphins, which have non-functioning rudiments of hip bones and femurs etc. But if one does look at the fossils, there are numerous transitional forms that have functional limbs where these rudiments are now found.

If one wants to form some sort of alternative creation theory, one would have to explain why a creator would create myriads of slightly different animals each in their own successive time period. One would also have to explain why certain animals which live in utter darkness have rudimentary eyes, sometimes beneath the skin. It would be kinda strange to specially create them that way to live in dark regions. Plus many other examples.

In addition, there is evidence in biology. Biology shows that we are closely related to several animal groups, some closer than others. There are signs that two ape chromosomes at one time fused into one which is now found in humans. At least, human chromosome #2 shows signs of being just such a fusion (humans have 23 chromosome pairs, great apes have 24 pairs).

I could write a book, but I'll just say that whatever you do, at least research the latest work by reputable scientists before you make up your mind. I've just finished reading a book by paleontologist Donald Prothero called "Evolution: What the fossils say and why it matters." which I'll recommend. It covers most areas in depth, also claims by creationists.

YouTube is not a 'scientific source', but it doesn't stop it from being a good resource if one know what to look for. Here's one in a good series of videos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7w57_P9DZJ4 You should watch that entire series.

17

One easy question to stump a JW

by drew sagan in

for quite some time i have been tossing around the idea that there has to be a question out there, a question that can cut straight to the heart of what it means to question the watchtower.

last night while doing some mindless tasks i think that question may have come to me.

the question is: .

Awakened07

If I was talking to a JW I would first get them to say that they believe nothing but the Bible. I then would ask them my original question as stated above. I then would try to see if they would accept the proposition that one can only understand the Bible fully if they have Watchtower history to refer to. I then would ask why they falsely stated that they use nothing but the Bible when it is very that they have added an extra component (Watchtower history).

-This seems like a plan, and should work.

But be advised that they see their history as being connected to the biblical history; that they are just a continuation of it in a way. That there always were 'Jehovah's Witnesses' around. So with at least some, you may encounter the argument that biblical history and JW history is part of the same.

Not trying to be difficult here, I just want to prepare you for whatever counter arguments you may meet.

11

SciFi Prophecies

by LtCmd.Lore in

jw
friends

there have been a lot of science fictions films, series and books.

well, the genre has been around for a while now, so we get to look back at some of our past films and books, and see if they have proven true, or false.. .

asteroid belt:false and true.

Awakened07

Jules verne, who is the original scifi writer, wrote about things that have come true. Don't remember them, though. I need a memory upgrade.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jules_Verne#Predictions Quite a few things, it turns out. I knew about the submarine and moon trip.

I guess we should mention Leonardo Da Vinci as well, since he made drawings of "helicopters" and other flying contraptions.

60

What's with Ex-Jw's who join another religion? Fool me Twice????

by Witness 007 in

sorry no offense but why do some ex-witnesses here join another group....we have a muslim {muhamed was given a koran by an angel in a cave?

}....we have some baptists etc......i researched the bible and found there are 1,000's of gospels not part of the bible...so what's the deal...."fool me once shame on you..fool me twice shame on me" or do you have a reason for continued belief in religion...i really wan't to know since iam agnostic and don't believe in god or evolution????

?

Awakened07

It may seem 'crazy' at first, but I think for some it's logical. They were in a 'cult', which they probably joined because they were spiritually searching. So when they leave the JWs, they are still spiritually searching, and figure that the JWs were wrong, yes, but then there has to be something better.

Not everyone researches the Bible and its origins when they leave the JWs, or the various sciences that go against a literal reading of the Bible - or if they do, they are so conditioned to think the Bible is the word of God that anything that contradicts that 'fact' must be wrong. Or, they decide to have a very 'relaxed' understanding of the Bible, and take out the parts of "the map" that don't correspond with "the terrain".

Or, as you mention, they may find that the Bible isn't true, but then search other religions and find one that appeals to them. It does seem a little weird, seeing how they as JWs learned of all the negative things about other religions, but on the other hand, since JWs were wrong anyway, what they say about other religions doesn't really have much clout.

Why they go to other religions or Christian churches and don't simply continue to believe in God on their own, is perhaps a little hard to understand anyway. But humans are a communal animal; we need to be with others who have the same beliefs and thoughts - strength in numbers. I remember that myself, when I arrived at the conventions, one of the good things about them to me was that I felt part of a bigger group; there were in fact quite a lot of people who believed the same, so perhaps I wasn't crazy.

Atheism or agnosticism isn't for everyone. I think it often boils down to an argument from personal incredulity; there has to be a God (Creator), there has to be more than this, 'I can't fathom how the universe and life would get here if not for God' etc. Not to forget that some people do have personal, religious/spiritual experiences, which to them proves that an atheistic view can't be right, and that an agnostic view is too 'weak' and 'inbetween'. They need religion to make sense of it all.

17

One easy question to stump a JW

by drew sagan in

for quite some time i have been tossing around the idea that there has to be a question out there, a question that can cut straight to the heart of what it means to question the watchtower.

last night while doing some mindless tasks i think that question may have come to me.

the question is: .

Awakened07

It's hard to 'stump' them on doctrine; they usually can come up with some explanation. I'm not sure I would have felt stumped by this back when I was a JW.

Obviously, I wouldn't have been able to show it using only the Bible, so in that sense I would be stumped. You could quote literature that says they only believe the Bible, as you say. But back then, I would probably at least have justified it to myself; that based on what I already believed and had learned, the FDS are the modern day 'chosen people', and as such are those who should interpret the Bible. I would probably have thrown in the passages that say that "it is not in man who walks to direct his steps." (Jer. 10:23) and “no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation.” (2Pe. 1:20, 21) After some mental gymnastics, I would conclude that the GB/FDS are needed to understand scripture, and that if they say it is so, it is so.

It would require some circular logic and intellectual dishonesty, no doubt, but circular logic and intellectual dishonesty is what it's all based on anyway.

That said, I wouldn't say you shouldn't try to use this, because it is a rather good argument especially when held up against their own literature which says the Bible "interprets itself". Just saying that all this is so ingrained in them that they will find a way to explain it away. But it will on the other hand probably reach some of them, or leave a doubt way back in their mind which may surface later.

It should be added that this exact example (and most of the rest of the Climax book) was so outlandish that even when I was a "devout" JW, I had a hard time swallowing it. Come to think of it, I think that book was one of the reasons I had my first doubts.