Posts by binadub

70

How many ex-jws poster here now believe in Hellfire, immortality of soul, trinity, etc;

by booker-t in

jw
friends

i am just curious about this because although i agree with many of the posters here that the wt society is guilty of many horrible deeds, i still believe they are right when it comes to doctrinal things as i mention.

especially hellfire.

i just don't see how anybody that has studied the bible for many years like many of the ex-jws here can make an about face and go back to believing hellfire.

binadub

Hi again, Randy:

Yes, we think quite a bit alike on Christianity. Something I find interesting is that if you do a search on, say, "history of Christianity," it returns all kinds of sources that describe its roots in the Roman Catholic and Greek Orthodox. Yet, the Egyptian Coptic church has a history as old, lineage of popes, and a higher scholarly history than the Romans or Greeks (e.g., the Catecheticala School of Alexandria). And so many fragments are found in Egypt.
If you specify "Coptic" it brings up a world of interesting background history of Christianity in the first century, which they trace back (traditionally of course :-) to their first pope being Mark (Peter's companion).

It's my opinion that when Peter wrote greetings from himself and Mark as from Babylon (1Pet.5:13), it was Babylon, Egypt, part of Cairo (about 500 miles from Jerusalem and a region where there was a significant Jewish population in the first century). That's supposedly why Jesus' parents escaped from Herod by going there. Here's an interesting scholarly link if you might be interested:

http://egyptsites.wordpress.com/2009/03/01/old-cairo/

Because Mark's history is so tied with Egypt, and he was Peter's companion, along with the significant Jewish population there in the first century, I'm inclined to agree with historians who believe this was the Babylon Peter was likely writing from. Naturally, orthodox historians dispute that in favor of "Babylon" likely referring to Rome. Literal ancient Babylon was too far from Jerusalem imo.

But I'm getting way off topic here. :-)
I spoke with Alan for about 3 hours about a month ago. He sounded great. I was really surprised about his heart attack, but am glad it was not more serious. Good that he discovered the diabetes.

Leolaia: Still wondering if it was in Washington State that you might have met AlanF.

{{{hugs back atcha, Randy}}}

~Binadub (aka Ros)[

51

I want to release the motherload

by Anony Mous in

i have collected and assembled hundreds of letters, documents, publications, personal communications, e-mails from the branch etc.

etc.. my original intent was to make some type of searchable database but my time has been taken over by more important things in life for me.

i don't care about the jw's all that much anymore and who or what gets what information i don't really care.

binadub

Anony Mous - you have a PM.

~Binadub

70

How many ex-jws poster here now believe in Hellfire, immortality of soul, trinity, etc;

by booker-t in

jw
friends

i am just curious about this because although i agree with many of the posters here that the wt society is guilty of many horrible deeds, i still believe they are right when it comes to doctrinal things as i mention.

especially hellfire.

i just don't see how anybody that has studied the bible for many years like many of the ex-jws here can make an about face and go back to believing hellfire.

binadub

Hi Randy:

Thanks for your reply. The longer historical account is pretty much what I understand about Benjamin Wilson. In my own independent study of the Bible, I do reject most of the orthodox doctrines you mentioned, including Trinity, immortal soul, hellfire, rapture; and including some of the doctrinal interpretations by Benjamin Wilson's religion as well. I'm very much like you in that I'm not associated with any religion, although I do retain Christian faith via independent study and research. I've somewhat married my Biblical research with studying the history of civilization (which I think is fascinating because of its roots in Mesopotamia and other coincidences).

The biggest biblical/doctrinal flaw I find with the WTS and related religions (including Wilson's) is the teaching of paradise Earth during the so-called "thousand years." To my study, their concept of survivors, resurrections, etc., etc., during the millenium is totally without scriptural basis and I've never found any JW who could reasonably defend it. I also disagree with their teaching of "Babylon the Great" as being false religion. (Of course the list could go on.)

Because you referred to me as "bro," I think you might not realize we have known each other on-line for almost two decades and we met at an exJW gathering at my sister's home in Pomona (late 90s).
I'm Ros on the other forums. :-)))
(I was only allowed to keep one moniker here, so I chose to keep Binadub.)
I was reading some of your bio this past week on the RandyWatters site. It was so interesting I almost e-mailed you.
I'll take a look at the article on hell you referred to above. Thanks for the interesting info.

Oh and btw, I didn't think you are evangelical. Did I imply that? :-)

Leolaida:
You mentioned on another thread that you met AlanF on a couple of occasions in the past.
I was wondering if by chance that happened to be in Washington State. If so, we may have met as well.

Thanks for the info "bro" Watters :-)
~Binadub (aka Ros)

24

the expression "JDUB"

by wannaexit in

jw
friends

i've heard the expression jdub coming out of the mouths of a couple of witnesses.

does it mean they know stuff about this organization and could possible be visiting sites such as jwd?.

this is leading me to believe that there are a lot more witnesses that have realized that their religion is a scam..

binadub

The popular term for JWs back in the 90s on the forums was just "dubs". (Hence, my moniker here. :-)

~Binadub

70

How many ex-jws poster here now believe in Hellfire, immortality of soul, trinity, etc;

by booker-t in

jw
friends

i am just curious about this because although i agree with many of the posters here that the wt society is guilty of many horrible deeds, i still believe they are right when it comes to doctrinal things as i mention.

especially hellfire.

i just don't see how anybody that has studied the bible for many years like many of the ex-jws here can make an about face and go back to believing hellfire.

binadub

Randy:

1) Benjamin Wilson (scholar who translated the Emphatic Diaglott) was never associated with the Christadelphians.
2) Quoting the Emphatic Diaglott is not quoting the Watchtower. It's the other way around.
3) I've toured Israel twice, including the usual walk through the Hinnom valley as well.

Benjamin Wilson was raised a Baptist, his family converted to the Campbellites (parent religion of the various Churches of Christ sects).

Dr. John Thomas founded the Christadelphian faith,after he had been associated with Benjamin Wilson for a while, but they had previously split over doctrinal issues (approx 1864). Benjamin Wilson ultimately became associated with what is now the Church of God Abrahamic Faith. He is regarded as a scholar, and his beliefs that were contrary to the Dawn Bible Students are occasionally reflected in the Diaglott's side column.

All of that aside, fwiw, I don't believe Wilson's Diaglott just because he said thus and so. On the topic of hell, I appreciate that it brought attention to facts that one could research further on their own. His interlinary's concordance was simply a launching point. I quoted that definition here because it was so concise on the topic. There is plenty of looong articles disputing the doctrine of hell by a Google search, but they get into a lot of detail for quoting on a discussion forum.

Just because the JWs picked up on Wilson's doctrine (or non-doctrine) doesn't make it hogwash. I wouldn't discount some of your good articles just because you were once a JW Bethelite and then a 4-Square. Some Catholics are excellent Biblical scholars (e.g., Bargil Pixner) independent of their religion. Scholarship is examining the information on its own merits, independent of who agrees with it or what their religion is.

Bottom line: Imo, you can't judge a scholar (or scientist) by their religion.

~Binadub

70

How many ex-jws poster here now believe in Hellfire, immortality of soul, trinity, etc;

by booker-t in

jw
friends

i am just curious about this because although i agree with many of the posters here that the wt society is guilty of many horrible deeds, i still believe they are right when it comes to doctrinal things as i mention.

especially hellfire.

i just don't see how anybody that has studied the bible for many years like many of the ex-jws here can make an about face and go back to believing hellfire.

binadub

Leolaia:

You are correct of course that there is controversy about whether or not Gehenna (valley of Hinnom) was a burning dump for rubbish, as there is controversy in essentially everything in history and science.
While there is tradition in early Christianity and Rabbinic Judaism to suggest this scenario for the Valley of Hinnom, there are other historians who say there is no concrete historical evidence this was true, as you say.

As I understand it, it seems generally accepted that the valley of Hinnom (Gehenna) was a literal place determined to be at the base of Mount Zion. Biblically, the references go back to Joshua chapters 15-18. Some believe that Isaiah was referring to the valley of Hinnom (Tophet) at verse 30:33 when he referred to the "burning place."

In any case, it is believed by many that in the ancient Jewish religion, Gehenna became a metonym (not literal) tosymbolizetheir belief in punishment after death. And this tradition evidently carried some influence over into early Christianity. Notably, there is no reference to Gehenna at all in the Apocrypha, the Dead Sea Scrolls, Pseudepigrapha, or Philo. To my thinking this is further indication that the Bible does not teach a literal "hell" as everlasting torture of immortal souls.

According to Wikipedia (not the Watchtower) on "Gehenna", older Christian commentaries reportedly mention the tradition of Roman fires kept burning in the Valley as it became a refuse dump for Jerusalem and a place of throwing the bodies of criminals and carcasses of dead animals. However, this cannot be verified by any writing of Josephus, which is interesting. That does not mean it was not a literal place, it just means Josephus cannot be used as a secular historical reference, and without viable historical or archeological verification, it can only be reported as tradition. Actual historical reference of that "burning dump" concept of Hinnom only goes back to about the 1200 century AD.

As you know, Jesus used the word Gehenna (11 times) to describe the alternative to life in his Kingdom (Mk.9:43-48)--it being a place where both soul and body could be destroyed (Matt.10:28) in "unquenchable fire" (Mk.9:43). Since I believe Jesus was speaking in parable, and that Gehenna was a literal place (explicit evidence aside), it suggests implicitly--to my reasoning--that there must be some truth to a burning valley as it was described in the "tradition" of Gehenna in his day.

It is also reported that Jewish tradition said that "Hinnom" had a gate (e.g., a gate to "Hell"). Perhaps that is what Jesus was referring to when he said metaphorically that he would build his church on that rock and the "gates of hell" would not prevail.

Regardless of whether there was an actual burning dump called Gehenna outside of Jerusalem, I see no evidence that Jesus' words or any other scripture about Gehenna or Hades or Sheol in the OT or NT, refers to everlasting torture of immortal souls.

I'll conclude with this quote from the Emphatic Diaglott:

GEHENNA: The Greek word translataed hell in the common version, occurs 12 times. It is the Grecian mode of spelling the Hebrew words which are translated, "The valley of Hinnom." This valley was also called Tophet, a detestation, an abomination. Into this place were cast all kinds of filth, with the carcasses of beasts, and the unburied bodies of criminals who had been executed. Continual fires were kept to consume these. Sennacherib's army of 185,000 men were slain here in one night. Here children were also burnt to death in sacrifice to Moloch. Gehenna, then, as occurring in the New Testament, symbolizes death and utter destruaction, but in no place signifies a place of eternal torment.

I agree.

Thanks for your thoughts on the subject. Interesting information.

~Binadub

70

How many ex-jws poster here now believe in Hellfire, immortality of soul, trinity, etc;

by booker-t in

jw
friends

i am just curious about this because although i agree with many of the posters here that the wt society is guilty of many horrible deeds, i still believe they are right when it comes to doctrinal things as i mention.

especially hellfire.

i just don't see how anybody that has studied the bible for many years like many of the ex-jws here can make an about face and go back to believing hellfire.

binadub

It has never ceased to amaze me, both when I was a JW and after leaving, how the JWs (and exJWs) did not understand the Watchtower's expose' of the orthodox/fundamentalist, Dante's Inferno doctrine of Hellfire. Booker-t is right, that and the soul and Trinity doctrines are not scriptural.

I think that's one of the benefits of having been a convert rather than a born-in. I came out of Hell-fire, Elmer Gantry, revival church doctrine before I became a JW. I was fortunate that the two ladies who studied with me were also newbie JWs out of fundamentalism. We studied these doctrines to thoroughly understand them. After three months studying with the JWs, I could prove Hell was not a Bible teaching of everlasting torture from my King James Bible (which had a cross-reference and good concordance that defined the word "hell" quite nicely). I wanted to be really sure about that one before I renounced the belief. (That was back before there was a NWT.) I used Benjamin Wilson's Emphatic Diaglott too (which the WTS owned the printing rights to). A cursory study of the actual word "Hell" leaves no doubt that it is not a Biblical place of everlasting torture for conscious damned souls.

Take Jesus' words where the word is "hell" is erroneously used to translate the word "Gehenna" (or "Hades"--place/condition of the dead).
Gehenna was a literal burning garbage dump (Valley of Hinnom) outside of the walls of Jerusalem where they used to throw trash and also the dead bodies of criminals and sinners thought to be unworthy of resurrection, and therefore were not buried in tombs. In its history, Gehenna had been a place where Ba'al worshipers had sacrificed babies to Moloch. The place had a stench and it was kept burning with sulfur and brimstone day and night. The place depicted total destruction.
I just looked the word up in my old Smith's Bible Dictionary (copywrite 1884). Yep--it's right on under the word "Hell."

BOTTOM LINE:
You're right, Booker-t--the Bible does not teach perpetual torture of the dead, nor does it teach immortal soul nor (imo) a triune God. The Watchtower is right about those teachings not being Biblical doctrines.

~Binadub

102

Is the Borg "really" guilty in the Candace Conti case ???

by RubaDub in

full disclosure:.

i am an active (2-4 hrs/month) 3rd generation jw hovering under the radar.

been posting here for 10 years.

binadub

I can see where the two-witness rule (scriptural) could apply as to whether or not a member is disfellowshipped. But that should have nothing whatsoever with whether or not the crive, or even the accusation of a crime, is reported to civil law-enforcement authorities. Let the proper authorities investigate the accusations, not unqualified amateur congregation elders.

~Binadub

102

Is the Borg "really" guilty in the Candace Conti case ???

by RubaDub in

full disclosure:.

i am an active (2-4 hrs/month) 3rd generation jw hovering under the radar.

been posting here for 10 years.

binadub

Rubadub:

It also occurs to me that they did not have elders in the 1960s, unless it was instituted in the late 60s when I was almost "inactive".
When did the elder arrangement come in . . . ?

~Binadub

102

Is the Borg "really" guilty in the Candace Conti case ???

by RubaDub in

full disclosure:.

i am an active (2-4 hrs/month) 3rd generation jw hovering under the radar.

been posting here for 10 years.

binadub

Rubadub:

My memory serves me differently about announcements in the 1960s. As I remember it--at least in the congregation where I was associated--they did not devulge the reasons why a person was df'd or put on probation. Sometimes the matter was just pretty much known in the congregation because of gossip. As a matter of fact, if a person was put on probation, that did not even have to be announced. The person simply had to report to the CO and Assistant CO something like once a month.

One case I remember specifically was the case of the CO being removed and put on probation. Because people generally assumed 'adultery' when these announcements were made, the replacing CO announcing the action felt obliged to say that it was NOT for adultery, to squelch any rumors, but did not announce the reason for the action. I later found out it was for embezzeling from his employer. He was fired and that is how the matter got to be known.

Regarding the point you asked why the WTS is being held liable in the Conti case: As I understand it--and people can correct me if I'm wrong--it's because the WTS not only admonishes elders to keep such matters confidential from the general congregation when a crime (including child abuse) is reported, but they are instructed to not report it to authorities. We realize WTS will undoubtedly make the case that as elders they have the right and obligation of confidentiality under law the same as lawyers, priests, doctors and psychiatrists. However, I think those proessions are supposed to report crime (correct me if I'm wrong), especially endangerment.

But here's the thing: It has often been reported that abused children and wives--not being elders and therefore not obliged to confidentiality-- have been specifically warned by congregation leaders to NOT report criminal actions such as abuse to the civil authorities. Some victims have said they were threatened with being disfellowshipped if they reported the crimes. If this is true, and if it is the result of the WTS directive, such as in paragraph 14 of the April 2012 confidential BOE letter and in the 1989 BOE letter, then it would seem the plaintiffs have a worthy case against the WTS.

At the very least, if the elders become aware of a crime in their congregations, such as child sexual abuse by a member, they should require the criminal to turn their self in to the authorities in order to demonstrate repentance. If a criminal is not willing to turn their self in, they are not repentant imo.

It would be interesting to know whether the victim and/or her mother in the Conti case were advised to not report the matter to civil authorites.

~Binadub