I don't know about religious forgiving, but rational forgiving just means to give before, = fore-give. It means a debt is paid. So if you own me ten dollars and you pay me the ten dollars I forgive the debt because the debt is paid. I can also pay the ten dollars on your behalf, and that will also forgive the debt. I can just say, "The debt is paid.", and that's a forgiveness of the debt. A debt always precedes the subject of forgiveness.
The debt can be charged as an insult and the payment is an amend. If I make the amend for you, the debt is paid and "forgiven". Just like the ten dollars, no more amends are "due and payable".
Forgiveness does not mean I want to do more business with you. It was too much hassle getting the ten bucks out of ya and I wrote it off (forgave it). If you insult me and if you either make the amend, or if I make the amend to myself on your behalf, I may very likely not want more connection with you. Forgiveness does not mean a relationship is repaired any more than it means you want to continue to do business with an individual who you had to take to court to get her to pay you, it just means a debt was paid.
Most people don't want to continue to do business with people who they have had a bad business experience with. Same with personal relationships.
Thoughts on forgivness...Is there a process?
by Sparkplug 80 Replies latest social relationships
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garybuss
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LittleToe
Craig:
...but then, actually not so unilateral, as a certain amount of remorseful acknowledgement from the sinner is to be expected before such an offer is extended. This is, after all, the way the Biblical God does it.
I assume you're talking about the JWs when you use the term "Christian"?
What is the "certain amount of remorse"? Can't it be a simple heartfelt apology? Why does it have to be hours and days of hand-wringing? Or as Gary suggests, a simple "writing off" of the debt.
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Rom.8:1
Further, if Jesus expected people to forgive seventy times seven times, isn't there an indication there that he does the same?
Personally I try to keep a short account with people. I simply attempt to let it go (which admittedly at times can be easier said than done, but mostly isn't difficult), while also attempting not to judge others. The alternative could easily be to take offense at a whole pile of stuff that's actually none of my darned business.
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Scully
Then Peter came up and said to him: "Lord, how many times is my brother to sin against me and I am to forgive him? Up to seven times?" Jesus said to him: "I say to you, not, Up to seven times, but, Up to seventy-seven times." ~ Matthew 18:22, 23.
Up until a couple of years ago, I thought this was pure ridiculousness. It seemed to me to be like giving someone a licence to abuse you. And in the context of the JW version of forgiveness, it is just that, because in forgiving someone and permitting them to sin against you Up to seventy-seven times implies that the forgiveness is for the "sinner's" benefit, and not your own.
Sometimes, though, and probably the ultimate goal of giving forgiveness should be for OUR OWN benefit, particularly when someone refuses to accept responsibility for their actions or does not acknowledge the detriment they have caused to us. It doesn't require that we resume happy-happy-joy-joy relationships with these individuals, but it does mean that we make a conscious choice to not permit the damage that these people have caused us to keep us in a state of emotional and mental inertia and turmoil. We choose to live deliberately and purposefully in a way that raises us up out of "that place" where an abuser / controller / manipulator wanted us to be, making choices that reflect our goals and dreams and ambitions.
It doesn't have to happen immediately - it's definitely a process - but eventually we want to be able to grant forgiveness (even when it is not deserved or requested) so that we can let go of the past and embrace the present and future. We can't change the past, but we can choose where we want to go, and that journey is so much easier when we aren't weighed down with anger and resentment against someone who has harmed us deeply. We don't need to resume a relationship with these individuals, and it doesn't mean that we forget what happened in the past and the lessons we can share with others in similar situations. But we certainly can acknowledge our own strength and resilience, our determination and the empowerment that comes from our own successes. Granting forgiveness in those circumstances is like saying to someone "Yes, you tried to destroy my spirit and my life. And YOU FAILED. I WON! You can't hurt me anymore."
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Billygoat
Excellent thread Sparky. Excellent post Scully.
The most difficult thing I've had to learn about forgiving others is that it's not about them...it's about me. Like Scully said, it's making the deliberate choice to not carry that suitcase of grudge that comes with being wronged. Why burden myself with baggage they left behind? How many times have I been forgiven in my life for doing stupid stuff? A million times over!!! So why not do the same to others?
Forgiveness is not a feeling. It's a choice. Sometimes it has to be made over and over and over again in order for the feeling of "letting go" to finally kick in.
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onacruse
LT, my feelings about forgiveness are based on the hard facts of hard experiences, living a hard life with hard disillusionments.
Whether based on Christian principles, or by what I perceive to be my own personal principles, in my own experience (and, very admittedly, it's only that): not one single person I've "forgiven" really gave a crap that I'd forgiven them, or changed one whit because I had been so conciliatory.
I see forgiveness as an exercise of self-delusional hopeful expectations, a lesson that I've been forced to continue to learn to this very day.
Respectfully,
Craig
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LittleToe
Interesting observation, and quite telling, if I may say so.
What have you been hoping and expecting out of the various situations? Is that really what forgiving is about?
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Crumpet
Is that really what forgiving is about?
What does forgiveness involve in your opinion little toe? I think forgiving oneself is much harder than forgiving someone else. However I don't think god needs to be involved in forgiveness as sparkplugs initial post conveys.
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Apostanator
Ahhhh...... Garybuss, I always enjoy your posts.
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colorado5591
The most difficult thing I've had to learn about forgiving others is that it's not about them...it's about me. Like Scully said, it's making the deliberate choice to not carry that suitcase of grudge that comes with being wronged.
Very well put! I agree whole heartedly! My father and I had a real abusive relationship. It's a long story but when he was in the hospital dying, we had alot of time to talk about everything we put one another through. We realized that we had not forgiven ourselves and that it was preventing us from in turn forgiving each other.
We mutually made the choice to let go and there was this amazing sensation of peace and healing of our souls.
A month later, he took his last breaths in my embrace. I was truly broken but at least I had the comfort of coming to terms with my childhood, and the true peace of giving and accepting forgiveness.
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JamesThomas
Perhaps true forgiveness is not something we do, but rather an expression of what we really are.
I have found that If there is earnest investigation and attentive observance within the moment to moment dynamics of the mind, it can be seen that much of what I call "my life" is but a complex conceptual story that the mind continually weaves. There is a story called "me", and a story called "you" and a story about our relationship; none of which is true. Conflict is due to ignorance of what is true, and protection of our fractured, fragile and fictitious story of self and other.
When this is clearly seen within ourselves (that blinded by the stories we know not what we do), there arises an effortless and natural forgiveness of wrongs committed.
Which begs the question: if I am not the story, then who/what?
j