by Evanescence 87 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Qcmbr

    aww now this isn't funny. I'm off to bed. Blow this for a load of rubbish.

  • poppers

    I've had Mormons come to my house; most recently, two women (!) came a year ago. I have found them to be open and willing to at least hear about other viewpoints, and even (so they said anyway) think about about the things I brought up. What I attempt to do is to get them to, momentarily at least, see what happens when all beliefs/ideas are let go of, to see how "what is" gets skewed by any belief, and how "what is" needs no filtering system to be experienced. What happens after they leave I have no idea. In most cases, I'm fairly certain, they revert to their belief system - they go back to "sleep" and continue their dream version of "what is".

  • Dune

    The thing that turned me off the most about the mormons was their belief that all non-whites went to lower levels of Heaven when they died.

    I dont know if they stick to the belief now, but one time is always enough for me.

  • Double Edge
    Double Edge
    The thing that turned me off the most about the mormons was their belief that all non-whites went to lower levels of Heaven when they died.

    I dont know if they stick to the belief now, but one time is always enough for me.

    Mormons never believed that, although there was a time that the African Americans weren't allowed to hold their priesthood, just as women can't today (not only in the mormon church, but other christian churches as well). They were, however, always allowed to be baptised and join their church. Secondly, if you know anything about the history of most of the Christian churches in America, you would know that less than a hundred years ago those 'Christians' didn't believe that blacks had souls and it was VERY rare for a white congregation anywhere to have blacks in their fold. The blacks started their own Christian churches (the music was better too). It's only been in the past 25 years or so that black and whites can be found together in a Christian congregation. As people get to know and associate with one another, those old walls of ignorant beliefs are torn down. You can't point to one church or another as to holding 'racists' beliefs when it was a whole ignorant culture that perpetuated such non-sense.

  • under74
    U74 - Burned-Over District. I think that only once in America's history could teh LDS church have ever made such an appearance and grown the way it did. I think this time in America's history was a golden age and certainly was partially responsible for Joseph Smith's question ' Which of all the churches is true?'

    Really? A golden age??? Understand that the Millerites (where the JWs spawned from) came out of the District and the Fox sisters Spiritualist movement (although they were more of a gimmick) the same time all kinds of Utopian Societies were popping up (many in the Burned-Over District) all over. The Holy Roller movement has it's roots there as well. In looking at all of them I tend to feel they all have a lot in common. I understand it was a region full of lay-mininsters or famer-preachers and that at that time there was so much transition in the world that many looked to religion for comfort BUT wouldn't you say that the majority of the religious groups that popped up in the Burned-Over District were cultish?

    And what do you think about JS introducing polygamy at Nauvoo?

  • LittleToe

    A thought struck me, and I'd really like an answer to it Dave...

    If a Christian-raised individual is called upon by Missionaries and the topic of the Trinity is astutely avoided so that the individual can get baptised ASAP, then the individual later finds out that this is not a LDS belief and leaves and is antagonistic due to having been "fooled", wouldn't they be classed as apostate and condemned to the lowest "hell"?

  • Qcmbr


    There are four 'general' locations:

    Outer darkness: Absolute mingers - the Judas Iscariot types - i.e. I saw / know without doubt Jesus amd reject Him. A tiny group - very few can ever do this.
    Telestial Kingdom: Stinkers. The rogues, murderers, bad people - the people who reject Jesus but aren't in OD.
    Terrestrial Kingdom: The nice people. Everyone who lived a decent life but still reject Jesus' atonement.*
    Celestial Kingdom: Those who obey God's commandments and accept the atonement.

    All the three kingdoms are glorious and Jospeh Smith said that if you could see the telestial kingdom you'd feel a desire to end your life here just to get there. This world at its very best approximates the telestial kingdom.

    If you don't accept the C kingdom however you have rejected Jesus' sacrifice and have to suffer the pains of hell to pay for your sins - in other words you go through what Jesus did at Gethsemane until your sins are paid.

    If you left the LDS faith and critically, rejected Jesus but didn't do much wrong your likeley to qualify for Terrestrial life. Like I keep saying the LDS faith doesn't exist in heaven just as much as the born again religion doesn't either. Heaven is not a church. My goal as a missionary was to get everyone baptised by authority not simply as another LDS. In our prophcies we expect the time when other people of the house of Israel will return, led by their prophets (i.e. non LDS.) We also closely identify with the Jews (though I doubt the feeling is mutual:)

    * the reason why I was suggesting that obedience is critical - can you accept Jesus if you don't do what he asked? Would Israel have died if they didn't look at the brazen serpent?

    I'm going to bed - this place is way too addictive.

  • LittleToe

    Which Jesus? The LDS "Jehovah" one, or Christendom's Trinitarian one?

    So I accepted Christ's atonement, subsequently got baptised in spirit and in water and regularly partake of the sacrament of the Lord's supper. I also "hope" with the best of them, and do my best to keep his commandments (especially the ones concerning love).

    Unless I get baptised (in this life or post-humously by proxy) by LDSs, you don't honestly expect to see me in the Celestial kingdom though, do you?

  • OldSoul

    Watch out, LittleToe! He's gonna get baptized for you! AGGHHHHH!!!

    (Sorry, Qcmbr. Couldn't resist. Paranoia kicking into overdrive here.)


  • Qcmbr

    Actually LT - I hope to see everyone there! OK that was a pat answer but honestly, its a born again phrase to claim that you can't be saved by the 'mormon' Jesus - you won't find(shouldn't! find) Mormons saying you can't be saved by the 'baptist Jesus' or the 'catholic Jesus'. I don't care whether someone truly believes Jesus is three in one, an individual or green cheese - all I care about is that they try their best to follow Him.

    Where we are radically different to all christian religions save one (Catholics) is the claim to authority from a literal divine source.

    I found it quite enlightening to hear the response of christians on the door when I told them about the literal building of Zion, the actual gathering of Israel, new scripture testifying that Jesus is the Christ, a modern day prophet receiving revelaion, a restoration of the Priesthood - they were more interested in proving that they were right than the possibility that what we were saying was true. To me that was like telling a rich man that there is more money in a wallet in my hand and that person saying I don't believe you so I won't look - at least have a look you wally!. I always thought that christians would be really excited to find out more about Jesus. I was really wrong. As a side note I always listen to any religious people who wish to share their views. I figure they have as much right to be 'right' as I have.

    The funny thing is that often when I talked to born agains they said about how I was a child of the devil and that I was going to hell and then in the next breath said all that was needed was to confess Jesus. I'd stand at the door and think 'duh! - I'm not selling windows here.' Like I said at the top - its a born again trait to say you can only be saved by the born again Jesus.

    Now the answer you really want LT - the one you are trying to get out of me: I believe everyone must be baptised by someone with actual authority - not self appointed.

    Now the answer you don't expect: Does that happen outside the LDS church? Yes - we know in scripture that there are other prophets and small groups of people who have the same actual authority. Where? Not a clue.

    Back to the answer you wanted: Do the Born agains have that authority. Doubt it.

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