Was Jesus Created?

by 9thWonder 97 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • zen nudist
    zen nudist

    perhaps the whole issue is just a poorly formed question....

    where does it say anywhere in the bible that any of the angels were created?

    and when it uses the term created, what is meant? everywhere in the bible the word means to make some sort of

    order out of some sort of chaos, never ex nihlo or from nothing.... man was not created from nothing, but from the earth

    and angels may have been created out of the very stuff of elohim or ruach, but not from nothing...

    to say Jesus was not created would not really mean anything other than he was always God....but since he is a completely seperate person from Jehovah, the father, than he is also a 2nd god if that is the case and no amount of silly trinitarian protests would change that.

    this stupid notion that there can be three people but only one god is just irrational formulation which works the faith driven masses better than logic and rationality as no one really wants a god you can figure out too easily

  • Honesty
    Honesty
    In the Bible there are verses that support the Trinity and verses that support the anti trinitarian view, and each side tries to bend the verses that don't agree with its views so as to make them fit in with it.

    Which verses support the different opinions?

  • JamesThomas
    JamesThomas
    perhaps the whole issue is just a poorly formed question

    So true.

    When it comes to significant-truth there has to be a drastic move outside the box, or nothing comes of it but endless discussion.

    The question "Was Jesus created?" assumes that there is a god who creates things. This unquestioned assumption reduces God to but an object separate. A thing, which has beginning and end. A distinct individual.

    Perhaps our Source is not so small and limited, but rather Infinite; and so all phenomena is a manifestation of That. Here, there is no Creator, and no created. There is only God. I AM.

    So, the significant question is not regarding Jesus, but rather you. Were you created? Who are you, really?

    j

  • hibiscusfire
    hibiscusfire

    Jesus is God

  • JamesThomas
    JamesThomas

    Who, are you?

  • trevor
    trevor

    Once again James Thomas has cut through all the jarring sects.

    We are a manifestation of that which is and as such we are part of the life force that is called by some people - God. We are not separate.

    When it comes to whether Jesus was born or created, such words are rather redundant. Jesus was always a part of God who became manifest as did and does everyone and every thing. Anything or any one that contains the life force is a part of God and has always been, though not manifest in it’s present form. Life cannot die it can only leave a body or plant and return to it’s source.

  • hibiscusfire
    hibiscusfire

    Jesus is the Creator.

  • M.J.
    M.J.

    Imagine praying in the name of Moses. He acted as the mediator for the Jews.

    Because Jesus is called the Son of God, this applies inferiority to the Father.

    D'oh! Does it? I guess I'm inferior in a lot of ways to my dad, but I don't generally like to think of myself that way.

    I just think in general one ought to be careful not to put categorization over exhortation...In general by doing this the WTS takes way too much away from Christ.

  • JamesThomas
    JamesThomas
    Jesus is God

    You are certainly free Hibiscus, to subtract Divinity from all the universe(s) and shrink God down to a tiny finite entity called Jesus, rather than investigate and see if our Source and Sustenance is indeed INFINITE (which would include Jesus, but no more or less than yourself). You are not alone in honoring and embracing beliefs in a lesser god.

    The problem with beliefs which focus on a deity separate, is they do little or nothing to stimulate motivation to abandon all beliefs and look within our own conscious being to discover the foundational Truth and reality of our Identity. Instead they present a god too tiny to be here now and keep attention looking outward to some other person, place and time. We never get to where we want to be for we are blind to where we are already. It is the ignorance of our own being that fills the world with suffering.

    j

  • jschwehm
    jschwehm

    “If only some ancient unknown apostolic letter was discovered that would clarify the issue one way or other or if we could travel back in time and ask all the apostles to clarify the issue. Was there a time when the Firstborn Son did not exist? Is he inferior to the Father?”

    Here you go:

    St. Ignatius was the bishop of Antioch and according to tradition is said to have learned the faith from St. Peter.

    Being the followers of God, and stirring up yourselves by the blood of God, ye have perfectly accomplished the work which was beseeming to you.” St. Ignatius of

    “ There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; God existing in flesh; true life in death; both of Mary and of God; first possible and then impossible, even Jesus Christ our Lord.” St. Ignatius of , Letter to the Ephesians ~107 A.D.

    “For our God, Jesus Christ, was, according to the appointment of God, conceived in the womb by Mary, of the seed of David, but by the Holy Ghost. He was born and baptized, that by His passion He might purify the water.” St. Ignatius of , Letter to the Ephesians ~107 A.D.

    Ignatius , who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which has obtained mercy, through the majesty of the Most High Father, and Jesus Christ, His only-begotten Son; the Church which is beloved and enlightened by the will of Him that willeth all things which are according to the love of Jesus Christ our God, which also presides in the place of the report of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honour, worthy of the highest happiness, worthy of praise, worthy of obtaining her every desire, worthy of being deemed holy, and which presides over love, is named from Christ, and from the Father, which I also salute in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father: to those who are united, both according ta the flesh and spirit, to every one of His commandments; who are filled inseparably with the grace of God, and are purified from every strange taint, [I wish] abundance of happiness unblameably, in Jesus Christ our God.”- St. Ignatius of , Letter to the Romans ~107 A.D.

    “I pray for your happiness for ever in our God, Jesus Christ, by whom continue ye in the unity and under the protection of God, I salute Alce, my dearly beloved. Fare ye well in the Lord.”-St. Ignatius of Letter to Polycarp ~ 107 A.D.

    “Hence are we called atheists. And we confess that we are atheists, so far as gods of this sort are concerned, but not with respect to the most true God, the Father of righteousness and temperance and the other virtues, who is free from all impurity. But both Him, and the Son (who came forth from Him and taught us these things, and the host of the other good angels who follow and are made like to Him), and the prophetic Spirit, we worship and adore, knowing them in reason and truth, and declaring without grudging to every one who wishes to learn, as we have been taught.” –Justin Martyr First Apology Chapter VI ~150 A.D.

    If you wish to read more of the writings of the earliest Christians, they are located at www.newadvent.org

    Jeff Schwehm

    www.catholicxjw.com

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