Was Jesus Created?

by 9thWonder 97 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • 9thWonder
    9thWonder

    Was Jesus created? This question came out of a discussion I was having with a preacher of a no-denominational church. He was trying to convince me of the truth of the trinity doctrine. We were discussing other things and I was getting a little agitated listening to him rip apart many of the beliefs that I upheld and taught to others for years. So when he finally got to the trinity doctrine, he started with the father, then the holy spirit, then as he got on the son...the first words out of his mouth was that Jesus was not created. I argued that he was, so he asked me to show him in the bible where it says that Jesus was created. I didn't have to search, I knew that it wasn't there. That was the beginning of the real crumbling of my faith. He wouldn't go any further because he said that he saw that I wasn't ready to hear anymore, so I let him go and I promised to call him back to discuss it further. That was over 3 months ago.

    My question to you all is does anyone have any proof that Jesus was created. I know that the New World Translation version of the bible says that Jesus is "the only begotten son of GOD" but is that the only evidence that the JWs have to support this belief?

    What about other JW beliefs that don't have scriptural support??????

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    There are two main proof-texts the Society uses:

    15 "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist, 18 and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that he might become the one who is first in all things; 19 because [God] saw good for all fullness to dwell in him" (Colossians 1:15-19; NWT).
    14 “And to the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·ce´a write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God" (Revelation 3:14; NWT)

    Note that the first text is modified in the NWT; they add "[other]" in brackets in v. 16-17 because Jesus cannot create "all things" and himself be created. The assumption here is that the phrase "firstborn of all creation" includes Jesus as a created being within "all creation". But this assumption cannot be correct because: (1) The word "all" would mean something different in v. 15 than in v. 16 (first it includes Jesus and then it excludes him). Note that the NWT doesn't add "[other]" in v. 18, so that Jesus is again "first" as a member of "all things". So in v. 18, "all" switches back to including Jesus. Is it likely that the meaning of "all" can switch back and forth like that in a short passage? (2) The word "because" in v. 16 makes no sense if Jesus is a member of "all creation". In Greek, this word signifies that what follows is logically dependent on what precedes this word. Thus, Jesus is "firstborn of all creation" not because he was created first, but because "all things" were created by him. That it to say, it is Jesus' role as creator that makes him the "firstborn of all creation". On the other hand, the word translated "of" in "firstborn of all creation" does not necessarily mean that the "firstborn" is part of "all creation" (partitive genitive); it also can mean that the "firstborn" is over "all creation", that he is supreme over it (genitive of subordination). This fits the context much better: Jesus is supreme OVER all creation because (1) he created all things, (2) all things exist because of him, whether invisible or visible, whether having authority or not, (3) he is before all things, (4) he reconciles all things through him (v. 20). Compare also Hebrews 1:3 ("The Son ... sustains the universe by his powerful command"). As for referring to Jesus as the "firstborn over all creation", the word "firstborn" does not imply that Jesus was created as well. Paul uses the word to describe Jesus' relation to "all creation": Like a firstborn son who receives a "birthright", Jesus inherits all creation as his own (cf. Galatians 4:7, "If God has made you a son, he has made you an heir"). Compare Hebrews 1:2: "In our own time, the last days, he has spoken to us through his Son, the Son that he has appointed to inherit all things and through whom he made everything there is". In Paul's theology, Jesus inherited everything when he was glorified in his resurrection:

    "He emptied himself to assume the condition of a slave, and became as men are; and being as all men are, he was humbler yet, even to accepting death, death on a cross. But God raised him high, and gave him the name which is about all other names so that all beings in the heavens, on earth and in the underworld, should bend the knee at the name of Jesus and that every tongue should acclaim Jesus Christ as Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Philippians 2:7-11; JB).

    Thus, Colossians 1:18 refers to Jesus as "the firstborn from the dead, so that he should be first in every way"; it is in the resurrection that Jesus was made "firstborn" and appointed heir of "all things". The word "firstborn" is a title signifying Jesus' relationship to the Father as Son and to "all creation" as its exalted inheritor. There is here influence from the Psalms: "I will also appoint him my firstborn, the most exalted of the kings of the earth" (Psalm 89:27). That is to say, one can be "appointed" as firstborn; the word does not necessarily refer to one's origin as "firstborn". In fact, in language very similar to this passage Paul describes how Christ is made "firstborn" by having Christians share in his glory as "sons":

    "Creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. We know that all creation (pasa hé ktisis, the same phrase in Colossians 1:15) has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies....And we know that in all things (panta, the same word in Colossians 1:16-18) God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son (eikonos tou huiou, compare eikón tou theou in Colossians 1:15), that he [i.e. the Son] might be the firstborn (prótotokon, the same word in Colossians 1:15) among many brothers. He calkled those he intended for this; those he called he justified, and with those he justified he shared his glory" (Romans 8:20-30).

    On Jesus' Sonship as through his resurrection and subsequent exaltation as Lord over all things, see also Romans 1:4: "It is about Jesus Christ our Lord who, in the order of the spirit, the spirit of holiness that was in him, was proclaimed Son of God in all his power through his resurrection from the dead". Compare Acts 13:32-35: "It was to our ancestors that God made the promise but it is to us, their children, that he has fulfilled it, by raising Jesus from the dead. As scripture says in the first psalm: 'You are my son, today I have become your father.' The fact that God raised him from the dead, never to return to corruption, is no more than what he had declared".

    As for the second text, from Revelation, it refers to Jesus as "the beginning of the creation of God" (3:14). The interpretation provided by the WTS is that Jesus is here described as included within "the creation of God", as God's first creation. But the word translated "beginning" (arkhé) also means "ruler", so that the meaning may well be "the ruler of God's creation" and it is thus rendered this way in many translations. Note that in the same section, Jesus is referred to as "firstborn" in the same way as in Colossians: "Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, the ruler (arkhón) of the kings of the earth" (Revelation 1:5). Just as in Colossians 1:18, Jesus is referred to as the "firstborn from the dead" and the reference to him as "ruler of the kings of the earth" quotes Psalm 89:27, which refers to the king as God's appointed firstborn, exalted over all the kings of the earth. The word "ruler" (arkhón) here also fits with the sense of arkhé in Revelation 3:14 as indicating Jesus as supreme over God's creation. In addition to being called "the firstborn from the dead", the same section of the book also calls Jesus "the First and the Last, who was dead and has come to life again" (2:8). In Isaiah, the title "First and the Last" was an exclusive title for Yahweh (cf. Isaiah 44:5, 48:12), and alluded to his role as Creator, as well as having supreme power over the universe. Moreover, the author of Revelation has here connected it with the death and resurrection of Jesus -- again the focus is not on the creation of Jesus but his exaltation in his resurrection as supreme over all things. Much of Revelation, in fact, dramatizes Jesus' power over all things and his judgment as the enthroned "King of Kings and Lord of Lords" (19:16).

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Also, I forgot to mention Paul's references to God's new creation (cf. 2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 6:15). The theological picture is thus one of Christ's appointment (cf. horisthentos in Romans 1:4, being "fixed", "declared", "determined", "appointed" as the Son of God) or exaltation as Son of God in power as the "firstborn" of God's new creation, and thus with all privileges and right of inheritance owed to him. Here are some more Pauline texts on Christ as having the supremacy over "all things":

    "From their flesh and blood came Christ who is above all, God forever blessed! Amen" (Romans 9:5).
    "When everything is subjected to him, then the Son himself will be subject in his turn to the one who subjected all things to him, so that God may be all in all" (1 Corinthians 15:27-28).
    "There is only Christ: he is everything and he is in everything" (Colossians 3:11).

    Compare with Ephesians:

    "That he would bring everything together under Christ, as head, everything in the heavens and everything on earth. And it is in him that we were claimed as God's own, chosen from the beginning" (Ephesians 1:9-22).
    "What rich glories he has promised the saints will inherit and how infinitely great is the power that he has exercised for us believers. This you can tell from the strength of his power at work in Christ, when he used it to raise him from the dead and to make him sit at his right hand, in heaven, far above every Sovreignty, Authority, Power, or Domination, or any other name that can be named, not only in this age but also in the age to come. He has put all things under his feet, and made him, as the ruler of everything, the head of the Church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all creation" (Ephesians 2:18-23).
    "It is through grace that you have been saved, and raised us up with him and gave us a place with him in heaven, in Christ Jesus ...We are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works." (Ephesians 2:6, 10).
  • trevor
    trevor


    Was Jesus Created?

    This is fascinating stuff leolaia and I am impressed by your efforts, but why can't Jesus speak for himself? Why doesn’t someone who Jesus has ‘revealed himself’ to - ask him?

    It’s a simple question which requires a simple answer. As we are told that God chose the foolish ones over the wise even I would understand a simple yes or no from the mouth of the only one who can tell us.

    Jesus lives? Hello!


    Edited due to wine intake.

  • the_classicist
    the_classicist
    This is fascinating stuff leolaia and I am impressed by your efforts, but why does can't Jesus speak for himself? Why doesn’t someone who Jesus has ‘revealed himself’ to - ask him?

    Would you really believe if he did "reveal Himself" to you? Or would you lock yourself in a mental institution?

  • DannyBloem
    DannyBloem

    leolaia,

    I see lots of texts but what is the answer. Yes or No?

    if yes: jezus is not the same as god, who had no beginning.

    if no: jezus is not influenced by time and could not have been dead.

    Danny

  • trevor
    trevor
    Would you really believe if he did "reveal Himself" to you? Or would you lock yourself in a mental institution?

    Along with several billion other people I would like to find out, but after a wait of around 2000 years it looks unlikely we will have the opportunity.

    Thanks for speaking up for Jesus, in his absence, but I would rather take a call from the main man.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    I see lots of texts but what is the answer. Yes or No?

    My point is that neither text refers to Jesus as a created being. It goes against the sense of the texts to claim that. Rather, Jesus is the Creator who created all things and who now rules over all things, having inherited them and made master over everything in his resurrection and exaltation. He is first in all things in two ways: (1) All things were made by him and through him, (2) By being resurrected, Christ is himself the "firstborn" of the new creation in which all things are made new by him and through him.

    if yes: jezus is not the same as god, who had no beginning.

    if no: jezus is not influenced by time and could not have been dead.

    I don't see how the second claim can follow at all from Paul's theology (remember, we're discussing merely what Paul said -- not any external reality of things). Paul believed that Jesus verily died and was raised, he also believed that Jesus as Lord of the universe is the "firstborn from the dead" and the "firstborn over all creation".... that the Son is "above all things". This is a very different concept than the one that Jesus was the first creation of God, and then through Jesus God created all "[other]" things.

  • JamesThomas
    JamesThomas
    Would you really believe if he did "reveal Himself" to you? Or would you lock yourself in a mental institution?

    This, brings us to an interesting and important area. I know people who have had their favorite gods, or saints appear before them. I did know a couple of UFO fanatics who swear they have had visitations from the big eyed, gray aliens. So what!!!

    The mind is a powerful tool, and it will often do everything it can to support and sustain it's created sense of personal ecoic identity; even to the degree of presenting before us those things which testify to the fact that what we feel is significant - be it God, Saint, angel, demon, or alien - is outside of us; and thus we certainly must be the tiny individual and separate entity the mind believes self to be.

    What really matters is not whether Jesus exists, but rather - do we? Am I the character within the story that the mind has weaved? Is this torn mental fabric the beginning and end of what "I" really am??? Is there a deeper truth and reality which has gone unrecognized? How deep does the closest and most intimate sense of conscious-being go? Who knows! We are too busy thinking and worrying about Jesus to find out.

    Since the beginning of written history, the wise have tried to direct conscious investigation inward as apposed to outward into space and time, person, place, beliefs and things. Why? Because until we know who and what we really and actually are, all we believe about ourselves and the universe is based upon a lie; and so we will die, never having lived.

    In other words: It's not important what or who is seen, but rather - what is seeing.

    j

  • greendawn
    greendawn

    In the Bible there are verses that support the Trinity and verses that support the anti trinitarian view, and each side tries to bend the verses that don't agree with its views so as to make them fit in with it.


    In my view when the Bible says something about the nature of Jesus it should be taken literally, if he is a son and a first born of all creation and the Father is Greater than him, he is just that, there is no reason to try to see deep mystical and unusual meanings in these verses. I don't think the Scriptures are playing mind games with us.


    He became Divine and worthy of outright worship as God after his sufferings as He said the Father gave everything to Him.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit