What's important IMHO about this is that is shows the #1 reason for the WTBS to be in existence to be WRONG. So if this is wrong how many other things are WRONG?!? This is something you can sit down with someone and review. Not debate philosophy. Actual writings from the WTBS, vs actual research from secular authorities. It's tough to refute.
So if you ditch 607 you must ditch 1914...the KEY DATE for the rest of Witness Dumb dogma. Or have I been out of Satan's Lair (KH) so long that they have already been back pedaling from this too?
607 date
by Cordelia 126 Replies latest watchtower scandals
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EvilForce
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IP_SEC
Yep and if you trash 1914, you have to trash the Daniel, IsiahI and II, books too as well as their current understaning of ezikiel.. They are based on the idea that the FDS ended its Babylonish captivity in 1918/19 which is based on 1914.
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EvilForce
It truly underpins there entire dogma.
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hillary_step
Scholar,
But use your intelligence, remember that most of those who are shouting that it is the wrong date at one time believed that it was the right date.
What an utterly ridiculous statement.
Most people inducted into the WTS have no clue about Biblical history, or even the secular history of that age. They believe because they TRUSTED those who taught them. It is exactly because they found upon further careful examination that what they had been taught was flawed, that they then learned the truth about the matter.
I cannot believe that you uttered what you did above Neil. A thirteen year old child can understand the logistics of a person who has a firm belief in something changing their minds upon receiving more accurate information.
In the 1920's psuedo pschology that abounded in Europe, many scientists spent considerable time and effort, as you have on your futile cause, 'proving' that Black's had smaller brains than Caucasian people. I have pamphlets in my possession that proves that numerous scientists of that time concluded that Blacks were indeed smaller brained than Caucasians.
Why did they believe this absurd notion? They believed it because they had a preconcieved agenda and bent the facts to 'prove' their theories. The layman fell under their spell by the millions because they were ignorant and relied on their leaders and teachers.
There are people on this Board who once believed that God was going to destroy 99.9% of humanity, woman, children, sick people in hospitals - everybody who is not a JW or does not fall into a specialist area deemed fit for survival. They believed this, because this is what they were taught and they TRUSTED their teachers.
Are you beginning to get the point? I once trusted that what I was being taught was true. I was not an expert. My discipline is in literature, art and music, not chronology and Hebrew. Then I studied the subject at hand, realized that I had been misled, and I believe deliberately misled, and now adhere to an accurate viewpoint on the dating of the first fall of Jerusalem.
That I have to explain this to a grown man is an embarrassment, especially one who professes a desire to defend and uphold truth. You really seem to have lost it these days Neil, your thinking is erratic and without much reason attached to it.
HS
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MidwichCuckoo
But use your intelligence, remember that most of those who are shouting that it is the wrong date at one time believed that it was the right date.
Scholar - although TRUE, this is an unfair statement. Those of us who were raised in the JW religion went to school for a Wordly education, and to JW for a Spiritual education - everything taught to us as children was taken for granted as being correct knowledge.
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googlemagoogle
hi cordelia,
you don't even have to go that indepth to prove it wrong. it's more about the 1914 date.
607 is a date to calculate 1914. BUT IT HAS NOT ALWAYS BEEN SO! pick up a revelation-climax-book and search for a grey box with russels picture in it (page number anyone?). it says, russel calculated from 606. and he said in 1914 armageddon would come.
now, the reason why he thought 606 is that he also calculated the year 0 (zero) as a year (it doesn't exist!). so his calculations were false! and his predictions too, by the way, armageddon never came.
so later when they found out about the mistake, they changed the year to 607 (which still is false) and changed the meaning of 1914 (but they dind't change it until the 1930s!). it's embarassing.
why is the 607 date wrong? the JW calculation is: 539 babylon fell, so the jews were MAYBE in jerusalem somewhen around 537 (take an insight book and look for all the WT conjunctives like, if-then, maybe, most probably, obviously and the like, there's nothing to prove this).
now 539 is a respected historical date, but the respected historical date for the destruction of jerusalem is 587, not 607. so even if all their other calculations would be right about the jews being in babylon for 70 years (which the bible doesn't say! it says 70 years of yoke for the nations and 70 years for the king of babylon, look up jeremiah), they still have to pick one of the respected historical dates and dismiss the other one. they might as well use 587 as the destruction of jerusalem and dismiss the 539 (and thus their own 537) date.
in the end you have to think about one thing: russel even calculated the 1914 date using the pyramids of gizeh.
good luck destroying your faith. it's fun :-) -
googlemagoogle
But use your intelligence, remember that most of those who are shouting that it is the wrong date at one time believed that it was the right date.
this is ridiculous! first of all, most jws don't even know how to explain the whole 607 stuff. and secondly, i bet there are a lot on here who at one time believed in santa clause and i don't think they still do. -
googlemagoogle
cordelia, i just want to add one little advice or better put, personal experience (i'm one of those still in, who had big troubles with the elders bout that kind of stuff, but now that i'm "inactive" they leave me alone).
don't try to argue a topic you have not yet understood COMPLETELY. don't start a discussion without being prepared. iirc your father is talking you into comming back and all, and it happens all too fast to say something, like the 607 issue, without having considered the response (they'll bring along books and books and mags and mags). you wouldn't have a chance to make your point clear if you are not prepared for it.
if one topic is important to you, research it thoroughly, and when you know both sides (or more) and know, how an argument will be tried to be dismissed, then you can start discussing it - if that's what you want. -
Stromboli
Hi, I posted the following few days ago and as I see scholar here It would be nice if you could discuss this as it will be helpfull for Cordelia too.
I'm know nothing compared to some people here so It could be nice if some of you gave an opinion of a view from the average guy.
Here is my previous post:
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Let's assume that the 70 year prophecy will be confirmed by all archeologists and Geremia 29:10 is correctly rendered "at Babilonia" so 607-537 is fine.
(I know everybody, but let's for a second)
When we get to Daniel 4 we have the dream and the tree is compared to the king Nebuchadnezzar. The WT confirms this and all is fine.
BUT
in Chapter 6 of the book "Pay attention to Daniel Profecy!" under the subtitle "Seven Times That Effect Us" Pg 94, right at the beginning in four lines they change the premises and say that the tree "symbolizes the universal sovereignty of Jehovah". They don't give any other details about it and they don't seem preoccupied to prove with the scriptures that this sudden change is justifiable. Then, they go on and use this changed premise to support 2520 years and get to 1914.
I'm no scholar but I can't honestly see where that came from? I mean this book is about Daniel prophecy I would expect to find a bit more about it. Where is the connection between the 7 times for Nebuchadnezzar and the end of gentile times and Jehovah sovereignty? Why the sudden change with non explanation?
Maybe I don't know something and this is a stupid question but if it's not I hope the experts here will elaborete on it.
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And I add now that Daniel was aware of the all the aspect of the dream and had the help of God for iterpretation but he never makes connection between the Tree and Jehovah.
Here there are many knowledgable people and is seems to me that Daniel 4 can be crucial, I would like to hear from all of you what you think too. Some have already responded with good points but I'm curios about scholar.
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MidwichCuckoo
googlemagoogle - have tried without success to find the ''Revelation-Climax'' quote you pointed to.
This morning I questioned the 607 date and was told that it is BIBLICAL whereas the 587 date was only History - I presented the length of the rule of Kings etc to arrive at 587, but, was told, this was recorded inaccurately by Historians (time being measured in differnet ways and so not reliable).
ALSO this morning (same JW) threw another date at me which I was unaware of - 455BCE - from which 607 is calculated (he didn't seem to know how though) - something to do with Cyrus The Great commanding Nehemiah to rebuild Jerusalem after it had been desolated for 70 years.I will be doing more 'homework' on this (and any help would be MORE than welcome).